# The Durham indictments prosecuting fake Trump 'collusion' **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 23, 2021, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215 "2021-09-23T20:11:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/102 "2021-10-07T09:04:12Z")
But just _look_ at how dirty that wall is after they threw all that mud at it! ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/103 "2021-10-07T10:59:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But just _look_ at how dirty that wall is after they threw all that mud at it! - \< sniffs \> That’s not mud. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/104 "2021-10-07T12:59:12Z")
Putting the phrase “fake Trump ‘collusion’” in the thread title doesn’t make it so. And 'collusion" was Trump’s term anyway. What a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2021, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/105 "2021-10-07T13:03:34Z")
Mueller’s investigation was specifically into “Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election”. And boy howdy, did he find a lot of that. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/106 "2021-10-08T20:45:17Z")
Yup. None of the convicted criminals, resulting from Mueller’s investigation, that Trump pardoned were pardoned of “collusion”. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/107 "2021-10-09T00:28:52Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > On the strength of this fake information manufactured by thr Clinton campaign, A number of investigations were launched, Robert Mueller was appointed special prosecutor, and Trump,was lept under suspicion for most of his term as President. All initiated by Hillary Clinton. Wow ,what an amazing coincidence that this allegation made up out of whole cloth by the Clinton campaign, matches so perfectly the actual well documented conspiracy by Russia to influence the 2020 campaign on Trump’s behalf that was subsequently discovered. What are the odds? Incidentally I did a quick search over the Mueller report, and neither Sussman nor the Alfa bank servers in Trump tower are even mentioned. The Steele Dossier is only mentioned in the volume on obstruction in terms of Trump’s reaction to it (the orange one doth protest too much methinks). It is surpring that these pieces of evidence that were the very basis of the Mueller report without which it all falls apart like a house of cards, receive so little mention in it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/108 "2021-10-09T02:01:08Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Wow ,what an amazing coincidence that this allegation made up out of whole cloth by the Clinton campaign, matches so perfectly the actual well documented conspiracy by Russia to influence the 2020 campaign on Trump’s behalf that was subsequently discovered. What are the odds? No one disputes that Russians tried to screw with the election. They have been doing that for many decades. The question is whether Trump colluded with them. And of course it’s no coincidence. If you are going to frame someone for colluding, you need a bad actor to collude with. Since everyone kmows Russia is dicking with America, they are the obvious choice. No one would have cared if Trump was accused of colluding with Sweden. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Incidentally I did a quick search over the Mueller report, and neither Sussman nor the Alfa bank servers in Trump tower are even mentioned. The Steele Dossier is only mentioned in the volume on obstruction in terms of Trump’s reaction to it (the orange one doth protest too much methinks). It is surpring that these pieces of evidence that were the very basis of the Mueller report without which it all falls apart like a house of cards, receive so little mention in it. By the time of the Mueller investigation, both of those had been debunked. That’s why he didn’t have to investigate it. The point is that the ‘dossier’ and Alfa Bank claims were used to jump-start the investigations, and then the existence of the investigations was leaked to the press to implicate Trump in the public’s mind. And Hillary Clinton is responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/109 "2021-10-09T02:19:48Z")
The mere presence of Paul Manafort in a high level position in an American political campaign would’ve been more than enough grounds for an investigation. Manafort had long been associated with rigging elections in Ukraine on the behalf of Russians and Russian backed candidates. The FBI would’ve been negligent not to investigate on that basis alone. Everything else was gravy. > **[What did ex-Trump aide Paul Manafort really do in Ukraine?](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-did-ex-trump-aide-paul-manafort-really-do-ukraine-n775431)** > > Trump's former campaign chief worked for an anti-NATO party and a politician who fled the country amid charges of corruption and collusion with Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/110 "2021-10-09T02:50:29Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The point is that the ‘dossier’ and Alfa Bank claims were used to jump-start the investigations, and then the existence of the investigations was leaked to the press to implicate Trump in the public’s mind. And Hillary Clinton is responsible. That is factually incorrect. I posted this once already but here it is again… March 2016 - Papadopoulos/Misfud meetings Rome and London April 2016 - Misfud travels to Moscow and meets with Papadopoulos on his return and tells Papa about “thousands of emails” that could be politically damaging to Hillary Clinton. May 2016 - Papadopoulos meets Aussie Pol Alexander Downer for drinks and tells him about the Russian emails. July 2020 - Aussies tell FBI about Papa’s bragging and Crossfire Hurricane is launched on July 31, 2016. September 19, 2016 - Sussman meets with Baker. It is simply not chronologically possible that, “Alfa Bank claims were used to jump-start the investigations.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/111 "2021-10-09T22:47:17Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > That is factually incorrect. > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > It is simply not chronologically possible that, “Alfa Bank claims were used to jump-start the investigations.” **Sam** appears to be operating on the assumption that if he repeats the same narrative enough times, it will somehow stop being debunked. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > No one disputes that Russians tried to screw with the election. They have been doing that for many decades. The question is whether Trump colluded with them. Mueller provided substantive evidence of 140 instances of close interaction between the Trump campaign and Russia during the 2016 campaign, plus 11 examples of attempted obstruction of justice to block the investigation into Russia’s involvement with the Trump campaign, plus the six felony perjury convictions for lying about meetings with Russia (not counting Jeff Sessions who fired the guy investigating him, nor Jared who committed multiple felonies in neglecting to report his meetings with Russia on his security clearance form). If Russia have been “doing that for many decades”, I’m sure you can provide us with similar examples of this kind of direct involvement with one candidate’s campaign from earlier presidential elections. We’ll wait. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2021, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/112 "2021-10-09T23:57:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The question is whether Trump colluded with them. Missed this earlier. This is not the question. This question has been answered. It is a well established fact that many of the 140 instances of close interaction between the Trump campaign and Russia during the 2016 campaign satisfy the ordinary, every day definition of collusion. There’s 100 consecutive pages of the Mueller report that cover this. There’s collusion on almost every one of those pages. e.g. page 140 > Manafort briefed Kilimnik on the state of the Trump Campaign and Manafort’s plan to win the election. That briefing encompassed the Campaign’s messaging and its internal polling data. According to Gates, it also included discussion of “battleground” states, which Manafort identified as Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Minnesota. The internal polling data being the most damning part. Giving internal polling data, which campaigns spend millions of dollars to obtain, to a guy connected to the Russian effort to help Trump win is pretty straightforwardly collusion. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2021, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/113 "2021-10-10T22:13:04Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > > > They had 5 years to find and charge this stuff. > > Durham wasn’t even appointed until 2018. His timeline so far is close to Mueller’s at the same pount. Special prosecutors seem to take their time. > > But no use speculating. We’ll find out soon enough of there is anything there. That might be a good day to start a thread on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/114 "2021-11-04T17:21:29Z")
Main Steele Dossier Researcher Arrested in Durham Probe: > **[Main Steele Dossier Researcher Arrested in Durham Probe | National Review](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/main-steele-dossier-researcher-arrested-in-durham-probe/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=breaking&utm_campaign=newstrack&utm_term=25579417)** > > The Russian analyst was hired to help compile the unsubstantiated dossier. > [@](#): > > The primary researcher behind the [Steele Dossier](https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/10/christopher-steele-the-russia-collusion-hoaxer-regrets-nothing/), a collection of unsubstantiated opposition research linking the 2016 Trump campaign to the Kremlin, was arrested by federal authorities Thursday. > > Russia analyst Igor Danchenko’s indictment stems from the federal probe led by [John Durham](https://www.nationalreview.com/news/durham-expected-to-indict-clinton-linked-attorney-involved-in-russia-probe/), the special counsel tapped by the Trump administration to audit the Russia investigation for malfeasance, anonymous individuals with direct knowledge of the matter told the _New York Times_. > … > In February, Durham issued a subpoena to collect documents associated with Danchenko’s former employment at the Brookings Institution, where he worked for five years. During this tenure, he faced a counterintelligence inquiry into whether he was a Russian agent. So, the Democrats hired a foreign spy, who in turn hired a suspected Russian agent to collect dirt on a Presidential candidate using contacts in the Kremlin. Isn’t this exactly the kind of stuff Democrats were accusing Trump of doing? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/115 "2021-11-04T17:39:10Z")
No. 🕵️‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/116 "2021-11-04T17:56:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So, the Democrats hired a foreign spy, who in turn hired a suspected Russian agent to collect dirt on a Presidential candidate using contacts in the Kremlin. > > Isn’t this exactly the kind of stuff Democrats were accusing Trump of doing? I think you’re skipping an intermediary or two here. As I understand it, it was: DNC&Clinton campaign (via lawyer) → Fusion GPS → Steele → Danchenko. As far as I know, Gathering dirt/oppo research on a political opponent using foreign contacts is perfectly acceptable, as long as it is done without _direct_ involvement of the campaign/candidate, to avoid a clear conflict of interest between a foreign government and a political candidate (potentially) beholden to the foreign government. I think: Political campaign (via lawfirm) → US subcontractor → UK subcontractor → Russian sources with Kremlin contacts is far different than: Political campaign → Russian sources with Kremlin contacts. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/117 "2021-11-04T18:56:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > So, the Democrats hired a foreign spy, who in turn hired a suspected Russian agent to collect dirt on a Presidential candidate using contacts in the Kremlin. No. The Clinton Campaign hired Fusion GPS. And they hired Fusion GPS to tell them the truth not to make up a story. Even if Danchenko is a great big liar, which remains to be seen, it would mean that the Clinton Campaign is the victim of fraud and not the perpetrator of a crime. If Durham’s indictment of Danchenko is to be believed, and it’s beginning to look like the previous Sussman indictment was a fairy tale, then it absolves the Clinton Campaign. There’s only two possibilities here. Durham is overstating his case and the Clinton Campaign didn’t do anything wrong or Danchenko lied to everyone and the Clinton Campaign didn’t do anything wrong. Which do you think it is Sam? Also Sam, you never answered this upthread… process crimes, serious or something that can be hand-waved away? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/118 "2021-11-04T19:04:25Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > There’s only two possibilities here. Durham is overstating his case and the Clinton Campaign didn’t do anything wrong or Danchenko lied to everyone and the Clinton Campaign didn’t do anything wrong. Which do you think it is Sam? - That the Clinton Campaign did something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/119 "2021-11-04T19:33:07Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > No. The Clinton Campaign hired Fusion GPS. And they hired Fusion GPS to tell them the truth not to make up a story. The first person to be indicted was a lawyer for Perkins-Coie who worked directly for Clinton, and who billed Clinton directly for peddling the fake Alfa Bank shit, including billing her for the time spent hawking bullshit to the FBI and CIA, where he lied about Clinton’s involvement. It’s amazing the flips and twists you guys will go to to defend what went down. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/120 "2021-11-04T19:36:21Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > That the Clinton Campaign did something wrong. And if some lawyer had peddled bullshit from Russians to the FBI and CIA, or had hired a suspected Russian agent to get information from the Kremlin to use against Hillry and then billed it to Trump, you would have been just as dismissive of it, right? After all, Trump didn’t do it - just some lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215/121 "2021-11-04T19:37:33Z")
Also I’d be interested in a cite that the Steele dossier was debunked. It was always presented as being raw intelligence not the gospel truth. For example I don’t think that the salacious golden showers incident in the hotel room was ever treated as anything more than a rumor. But last I heard, all the claims of the dossier fall either into the category of corroborated with additional independent evidence, or a category of unverified but not proven to be false. > **[The Steele Dossier: A Retrospective](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/steele-dossier-retrospective)** > > Not all of the material in the dossier has been proven. But none has been disproven. As a raw intelligence document, the Steele dossier holds up well. > As we noted, our interest is in assessing the Steele dossier as a raw intelligence document, not a finished piece of analysis. The Mueller investigation has clearly produced public records that confirm pieces of the dossier. And even where the details are not exact, the general thrust of Steele’s reporting seems credible in light of what we now know about extensive contacts between numerous individuals associated with the Trump campaign and Russian government officials. > > However, there is also a good deal in the dossier that has not been corroborated in the official record and perhaps never will be—whether because it’s untrue, unimportant or too sensitive. As a raw intelligence document, the Steele dossier, we believe, holds up well so far. That article dates back to 2018, and there may be new analysis that I haven’t seen (and would welcome links to). However even if it did turn out that some of the claims were verifiably false, that doesn’t automatically falsify the entire document. Even if there is proof that Trump spent a restful night in Moscow in a completely dry bed, that doesn’t mean that he was wrong that the Russians were behind the DNC hack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-durham-indictments-prosecuting-fake-trump-collusion/951215.md?page=7)