# The e-cigarette/vaping industry will soon be dead in Pennsylvania. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871 "2016-07-14T02:07:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/61 "2016-07-19T15:01:08Z")
[QUOTE=Crazyhorse] Undue regulation could stifle an industry that clearly offers a healthier alternative to tobacco use. [/quote] This “undue regulation” could on the other hand forestall the “very high VNP use rates (that) could result in net harms”, according to the theoretical modeling that is the basis of the study’s conclusions. Models and projections aside, we are still left with major questions about long term e-cigarette safety, and the knowledge that many young people have taken up e-cig usage even as youth smoking continues to decline. ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/62 "2016-07-19T16:35:00Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > …public health is already served by known effective smoking cessation strategies which are not predicated on continuing indefinite nicotine addiction… Are you talking about patches and chewing gum? Made and developed by the big pharmaceutical companies and supported by their well rewarded and powerful lobbies? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/63 "2016-07-19T16:38:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If you knew a recovering alcoholic and you spiked his drink, that would make you a dick. Doing the same thing with nicotine isn’t any better. I buy the liquid I put in my vape. I know that it contains nicotine. Where in the world do you equate that with someone spiking my drink? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/64 "2016-07-19T21:09:04Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > {…} Made and developed by the big pharmaceutical companies and supported by their well rewarded and powerful lobbies? Nah, there couldn’t possibly be a connection between tobacco growers and big tobacco companies both supported by well rewarded and powerful lobbies and the nicotine you’re vaping, right? > [@mascaroni](#): > > I buy the liquid I put in my vape. I know that it contains nicotine. {…} Nicotine distilled from the purest unicorn urine gathered daily by leprechauns and fairies! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/65 "2016-07-19T22:15:45Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Nah, there couldn’t possibly be a connection between tobacco growers and big tobacco companies both supported by well rewarded and powerful lobbies and the nicotine you’re vaping, right? Big Tobacco moved about as fast when it came to vaping as the music industry did with downloading. > [@](#): > > Nicotine distilled from the purest unicorn urine gathered daily by leprechauns and fairies! > > CMC fnord! No comment. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/66 "2016-07-20T00:56:00Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > No comment. Do you know offhand if the nicotine is collected from plant material, or is the molecule synthesized in a lab? Just curious on what wil eventually happen to tobacco farmers. ETA: heh. In the time it took to type the question, I coulda looked it up. That’s vaping for you. (The other kind) ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/67 "2016-07-20T17:10:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Just curious on what wil eventually happen to tobacco farmers. I’m not quite up to speed, but I understand other states are following Colorado’s lead, so there maybe opportuities to cultivate a different leafy cash crop. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/68 "2016-07-20T22:28:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This “undue regulation” could on the other hand forestall the “very high VNP use rates (that) could result in net harms”, according to the theoretical modeling that is the basis of the study’s conclusions. > > Models and projections aside, we are still left with major questions about long term e-cigarette safety, and the knowledge that many young people have taken up e-cig usage even as youth smoking continues to decline. Our opinions may differ on what regulation is due and what is undue. Nicotine, when not associated with tobacco use, isn’t particularly dangerous in itself. The only harm that has come from nicotine addiction is the use of tobacco to get the nicotine. Ecigs should be regulated, but regulating them as “tobacco products” is ridiculous, and I consider it undue regulation. They don’t carry the same risks and public health costs that tobacco products do and the makers and sellers of such products shouldn’t be subject to the enormously expensive regulations and taxes that have been levied against tobacco products. If anything with so much evidence that they are likely to greatly reduce the number of smoking related illnesses overall the government should be subsidizing them not taxing them at the same rate they do a known mass killer like tobacco. > [@kayaker](#): > > Do you know offhand if the nicotine is collected from plant material, or is the molecule synthesized in a lab? Just curious on what wil eventually happen to tobacco farmers. Synthesis of nicotine is possible and more and more vaping product companies are moving to synthetic nicotine. One ejuice maker has [moved entirely to synthetic nicotine](https://www.vapes.com/blogs/news/will-synthetic-nicotine-save-vaping-industry-from-fda-e-cig-regulations) since their customers are willing to pay for it and say it tastes a lot better. The cost of synthesis will get lower as more people do it and that cost, even as it stands now, is probably less than the taxes for tobacco products, which synthetic nicotine e-juice clearly is not. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/69 "2016-07-21T00:05:04Z")
Thanks, crazyhorse. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/70 "2016-07-22T07:51:33Z")
> [@Grrr](#): > > Enough with the e-cigs are supposed to help you quit smoking bull shit. > > Just like some people still want their soda with out the calories. (Diet soda) > > Some folks want their nicotine sans the carcinogens. I don’t smoke or vape, but know plenty of vapers and have no problem with them being able to enjoy the pursuit. However, the “E-cigs help you quit smoking thing” is a social acceptability smokescreen (heh); it’s easier to persuade people that I Can’t Believe It’s Not Smoking is somehow “beneficial” rather than trying to sell them on the “You know what? I like doing it, it tastes nice/feels good; I’m a grown-up and it’s not harming anyone else” angle. Helping people stop doing something bad = socially acceptable. Enabling people to do something frowned on, but in a different way = not socially acceptable, as a general rule… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/71 "2016-07-22T11:34:34Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Vaping has increased smoking among the young, it is not helping. Good for governor wolf. Your friend should find a less evil business to work in. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > There are figures demonstrating that even more young people have adopted e-cigs than take up smoking. [Not in the UK](http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_891.pdf). > [@](#): > > In March 2013 an additional survey of children aged 11 to 18 was conducted, the ASH Smokefree Youth survey. This has been repeated annually since then. For use among children please see the [ASH factsheet](http://www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_959.pdf). **In summary the ASH Smokefree Youth Survey shows that regular use of electronic cigarettes amongst children and young people is rare and is confined almost entirely to those who currently or have previously smoked.** Bolding mine. From the aforementioned factsheet: > [@](#): > > Key Findings > • Although children’s awareness of and experimentation with electronic cigarettes isincreasing, regular use remains rare and is most common among those who currently smoke or have previously smoked. This indicates that it is unlikely that electronic cigarettes are currently acting as a gateway to smoking. > • A growing proportion of young people believe that electronic cigarettes are as harmful as smoking tobacco. > • Rechargeable tanks and fruit flavours are the most popular types of e-cigarettes among young people both for experimentation and regular use. Also worth noting that roughly 98% of all vapers are current or ex-smokers _and_ that there appears to be a significant number of people who have either stopped smoking and switched to vaping entirely, or who smoke less because they also vape. So I don’t know whether it’s different in the US, but in the UK there’s little evidence of vaping having a significant take-up by non-smokers of any age (although there are obviously _some_) nor that it is acting as a gateway to cigarettes. And given that there are very real benefits to switching from cigarettes to ecigs, even accepting that quitting fully would be even better it’s still definitely a win for society. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/72 "2016-07-23T23:36:28Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Big Tobacco moved about as fast when it came to vaping as the music industry did with downloading. Yes, but Big Tobacco is an industry that has lots of regulations, government scrutiny, and private hostility. If Big Tobacco had jumped into vaping, I think it’s likely that the industry would have been restricted much more from the beginning and would already be as heavily taxed and regulated as tobacco is now. And the people touting studies from the vape industry about how harmless and even helpful vaping is would probably not be as eager to accept results from big tobacco, who have a well-known history of comissioning ‘studies’ that show their products are harmless or even beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/73 "2016-07-25T19:52:06Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Second hand smoke is far from ‘harmless’, as has been shown over and over. Vape fanatics claim that second hand vape is just some water vapor and harmless chemicals, but the only reputable studies show that it’s definitely not entirely safe (though the exact dangers are not known), and the fact that you can smell vape exhaust tells you it’s not entirely ‘clean’. Smokers/vapers who try to pretend that their activity is ‘harmless’ when it definitely harms other people aren’t going to get a lot of sympathy. You admit that you do not know what the dangers are but: 1) you know it has to be dangerous, and 2)it needs banned because you can smell it? This hysteria needs to stop. Nanny state busy bodies had thought that they had eradicated nicotine use and e-cigs were a threat to that. Now they are banning e-cigs so that everyone falls into line like we were supposed to do. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/74 "2016-07-25T21:53:49Z")
\*\*Can’t wait until PA laws come to NJ. \*\* Parks have been no smoking here for a while… but now we have Vapor Creepers spewing larger clouds than Steam Boat Engines of their crap (And Fogging 6 square feet around themselves) and it seems the laws don’t cover it. Trenton, get up off your ass and make “Smoking” = “Vaping” in all laws, will ya??? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/75 "2016-07-25T22:26:39Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > (And Fogging 6 square feet around themselves) You can’t stay two and a half feet away? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/76 "2016-07-26T00:31:02Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > You can’t stay two and a half feet away? :dubious: Wind. And being downwind of the Addict. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/77 "2016-07-26T01:41:13Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > \*\*Can’t wait until PA laws come to NJ. \*\* > > Parks have been no smoking here for a while… but now we have Vapor Creepers spewing larger clouds than Steam Boat Engines of their crap (And Fogging 6 square feet around themselves) and it seems the laws don’t cover it. > > Trenton, get up off your ass and make “Smoking” = “Vaping” in all laws, will ya??? I know my posts are invisible, but why should any legislative body making smoking laws equal vaping laws? The two are not the same. For a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, I expect better debating styles from the side that advocates treating e-cigarettes like regular cigarettes. The only argument I have heard is that since they look the same, and we really don’t know how dangerous they are (even though we really do know that they are not dangerous, at least second hand) they need banned even in outdoor areas. It is weak sauce. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/78 "2016-07-26T02:27:04Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Wind. And being downwind of the Addict. I was inquiring about how you calculate square feet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/79 "2016-07-26T09:15:27Z")
Plenty of vapers around here and I’ve yet to face any sort of impenetrable vaping fog. Frankly it’s considerably less obnoxious than cigarettes unless blown directly into one’s face. Also vapers don’t leave butts everywhere, which is another plus. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871/80 "2016-07-26T15:29:02Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Plenty of vapers around here and I’ve yet to face any sort of impenetrable vaping fog. Frankly it’s considerably less obnoxious than cigarettes unless blown directly into one’s face. > > Also vapers don’t leave butts everywhere, which is another plus. They just leave bottles everywhere. Which aren’t even close to biodegradable and the glass ones break for even more hazards for everyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-e-cigarette-vaping-industry-will-soon-be-dead-in-pennsylvania/759871.md?page=5)