# "The" Earl? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 25, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697 "2017-11-25T19:21:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/1 "2017-11-25T19:21:44Z")
I picked up a book, There _Is_ Intelligent Life on Mars, that is credited to “The Earl Nelson.” Yes, he was a descendant of Admiral Lord Nelson, though the Earldom came later. But that should make him just Lord Nelson or Albert Francis Joseph Horatio Nelson, 6th Earl Nelson. Why _The_ Earl Nelson? What does it connote that the shorter title would not? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/2 "2017-11-25T19:37:08Z")
I assume “The Earl” is the current Earl, to indicate that he is the only Earl at this time. [This](http://candicehern.com/regency-world/glossary/titles-and-forms-of-address/)site appends “the” to forms of address for titles of nobility. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/3 "2017-11-25T20:54:06Z")
I don’t think it has any particular connotation other than standard English usage: “the Prince of Wales”, “the Duke of Edinburgh” and “the Count of Monte Christo” all sound perfectly normal, I think. “The Earl Nelson” simply follows the same pattern. It’s no different to “John Smith, Managing Director” being called “the Managing Director”. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/4 "2017-11-26T00:41:59Z")
My understanding is the “the” appends to the senior member of a line of nobility. The Duke of Wherever, has a son, Marquess Whist, A Brother Lord Didget, and so on. I’m having trouble finding a reference that spells it out. I can find examples that show it, but none that explicitly state it. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/5 "2017-11-26T01:41:46Z")
In eastern Europe, titles were held by the entire family. Count Exapno Mapcase’s sons would be Count John Mapcase, Count Leo Mapcase, Count Frederick Mapcase, etc. In western Europe, a peerage is an office held by one person at a time. When the 4th Duke of Mapcase dies, his eldest son becomes the 5th Duke, and the rest of his descendants are technically commoners. The heir to a peerage is allowed to use one of the peer’s lesser titles, but that is just a courtesy. The Duke of Whatever sits in Parliament, the Marquess Whist does not. Younger children of dukes and marquesses are “Lord Firstname Surname”, but again, that is just a courtesy. It confers no political power or legal privilege. See if you can find a couple of books: _Titles,: Being a Guide to the Right Use of British titles and Honours_, by Armiger. (No first name. It’s a pseudonym.) _Debrett’s Correct Form: Standard Styles of Address for Everyone from Peers to Presidents_, by Patrick Montague-Smith. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/6 "2017-11-26T03:41:58Z")
I looked and the “The” is included in many names of Earls on book covers. I think what made it look odd is that most Earls are of places, i.e. The Earl of Birkenfeld. Some, however, are like Nelson, the Earl Surname. The lack of the “of” made it look weird. Why did that dichotomy appear? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/7 "2017-11-26T03:56:35Z")
As Debretts puts it: “It should be noted that although most peers of this rank are Earls ‘of’ Somewhere, there is a significant number that are not.” Nelson is one of the ones which is not. Looking at the list of those that aren’t, they all seem to be earldoms awarded for some military or civic achievement, and they take the form Earl Lastname, rather than Earl of a traditional British county. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/8 "2017-11-26T03:59:33Z")
And some, like Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, take the name of some foreign place where they won distinction: [Bernard Montgomery - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/9 "2017-11-26T03:59:45Z")
In case you’re curious, here’s the list of earls who don’t take that form. In most cases, their names should be familiar: Alexander of Tunis, Annesley, Attlee, Baldwin of Bewdley, Bathurst, Beatty, Belmore, Cadogan, Cairns, Castle Stewart, Cathcart, Cawdor, Cowley, De La Warr, Ferrers, Fortescue, Granville, Grey, Haig, Howe, Jellicoe, Kitchener of Khartoum, Lloyd George of Dwyfor, Mountbatten of Burma, Nelson, Peel, Russell, St Aldwyn, Spencer, Temple of Stowe, Waldegrave and Winterton. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/10 "2017-11-26T04:01:40Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And some, like Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, take the name of some foreign place where they won distinction: [Bernard Montgomery - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Montgomery) Yes, but he’s still not the Viscount of Alamein. He’s the Viscount Montgomery of Alamein. And actually, there are only two Viscounts who are of something. …Arbuthnott and Oxfuird. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/11 "2017-11-26T04:08:52Z")
If you’re curious as to why, btw, in the English peerage, Viscounts were always Viscount X. In the Scottish, they were Viscount of X. However, most Scottish Viscounts have adopted English practice. Those two are the only two to not. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/12 "2017-11-26T04:20:58Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > … “The Earl Nelson.” Yes, he was a descendant of Admiral Lord Nelson, though the Earldom came later. But that should make him just Lord Nelson or Albert Francis Joseph Horatio Nelson, 6th Earl Nelson. Nitpick: The present Earl Nelson is _not_ a descendant of the famous Admiral Horatio Nelson (who had no legitimate children), _nor even_ of the 1st Earl Nelson (Horatio’s brother William, whose legitimate issue also went extinct). Instead he is a descendant of the 2nd Earl, Thomas Bolton (nephew of Horatio and William), who changed his surname to ‘Nelson’ when he was earled. Allowing an Earldom to be inherited by a brother, let alone via a sister, was a special favor, but no posthumous honour was too great for the man who won the Battle of Trafalgar. The same special remainder was specified when the Admiral was given his 2nd Barony in 1801, after winning the Battle of Copenhagen. Thus the 6th Earl Nelson of Trafalgar and of Merton was also the 7th Baron Nelson of the Nile and of Hilborough. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/13 "2017-11-26T04:51:11Z")
Maybe The Earl Nelson went to The Evergreen State College. (or The Ohio State University, but I thought hippie nobility sounded better) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/14 "2017-11-26T05:29:02Z")
Does The Earl Nelson ever attend parties with Da Wattah Nelson? Nah. Earl and Wattah don’t mix. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/15 "2017-11-26T06:39:32Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I picked up a book, There _Is_ Intelligent Life on Mars, that is credited to “The Earl Nelson.” Yes, he was a descendant of Admiral Lord Nelson, though the Earldom came later. But that should make him just Lord Nelson or Albert Francis Joseph Horatio Nelson, 6th Earl Nelson. > > Why _The_ Earl Nelson? What does it connote that the shorter title would not? The previous answers in this thread are surely correct (and interesting), but I’d add that there may be an added incentive in avoiding simply putting “Earl Nelson” on a book jacket, as this looks to many (especially non-Brits) as a simple given name and surname, rather akin to former basketball star Earl Monroe. Oh, and Derleth — groan! You may be in Montana, but you talk like someone from Archie Bunkers’ Queens… ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/16 "2017-11-26T07:39:31Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > The previous answers in this thread are surely correct (and interesting), but I’d add that there may be an added incentive in avoiding simply putting “Earl Nelson” on a book jacket, as this looks to many (especially non-Brits) as a simple given name and surname, rather akin to former basketball star Earl Monroe. That may well be so, but insisting on the formalities can also cause at least a raised eyebrow or two here in the UK as well. I heard of a university where one senior academic was given a peerage and announced at some committee meeting that the minutes of the previous meeting should have referred to him as “The Lord X” rather than just “Lord X”. After that, the chair of the meeting spent half the meeting referring to everyone there as The Professor A, The Mrs B, The Dr. C, and so on, until the point was made. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/17 "2017-11-26T14:13:09Z")
Sheriff of Nottingham, in gratitude for your faithful service, I shall knight thee. You’re most gracious, Majesty. In the name of my most royal Majesty, I knight thee. [Conk] Arise, Sir Loin of Beef. [Conk] Arise, Earl of Cloves. [Conk] Arise, Duke of Brittingham. [Conk] Arise, Baron of Munchausen. [Conk] Arise, Essence of Myrrh… [Conk] Milk of Magnesia… [Conk] Quarter of ten. [extremely dazed] You are too kind, Your Majesty. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/18 "2017-11-26T15:57:28Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Sheriff of Nottingham, in gratitude for your faithful service, I shall knight thee. > > You’re most gracious, Majesty. > > In the name of my most royal Majesty, I knight thee. > [Conk] Arise, Sir Loin of Beef. > [Conk] Arise, Earl of Cloves. > [Conk] Arise, Duke of Brittingham. > [Conk] Arise, Baron of Munchausen. > [Conk] Arise, Essence of Myrrh… > [Conk] Milk of Magnesia… > [Conk] Quarter of ten. > > [extremely dazed] You are too kind, Your Majesty. I couldn’t figure out Duke of Brittingham, so I’m relieved to find it was an inside joke. > [@](#): > > This line: “Bugs Bunny: Arise, Duke of Brittingham!” is an in-joke regarding the bar Briitingham’s across the street from the Warner Brothers cartoon studio. According to writer Lloyd Turner in an interview with Mike Barrier, fellow cartoon writer Tedd Pierce was such a frequent customer Turner said that he “lived there.” ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/19 "2017-11-26T18:56:01Z")
Who would win in a fight: The Earl or The Batman ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697/20 "2017-11-26T19:26:30Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > Who would win in a fight: The Earl or The Batman The Ohio State University has the numbers. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-earl/802697.md?page=2)