# The Eastern Band of Cherokee is currently accepting only infants for membership **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 12, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735 "2009-07-12T04:01:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/21 "2009-07-13T00:55:38Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Also, for some reason lots of people claim a female ancestor as a “Cherokee Princess.” Even though they don’t have “princesses.” I asked Freeman Owl, a local Cherokee guy who does a fair amount of educational research, exactly this question (given a similar story in my own family history). His first answer was that those Cherokee princesses sure got around, but his serious answer was pretty interesting. Back a few centuries ago, a lot of white folks who moved to western NC did so to get the hell away from everyone. It was pretty common for these folks to be single white men. There were a lot more male white settlers than female white settlers. They started looking at the local ladies, who tended to be Cherokee. Under other circumstances, marriage might have been difficult. But the Cherokee are matrilineal: when a Scots-Irish guy married a Cherokee woman, the Cherokee considered the children to be Cherokee also. So there was no problem for them in the intermarriage, and the white guy didn’t really have alternatives. So that’s the first part: there was a lot of intermarriage. But why are these family histories so tenuous, and why aren’t the descendants considered Cherokee today? The answer is in the Trail of Tears. When the Order came down to relocate Cherokee, a lot of these mixed-race families hid. And the patrilineality of Scots-Irish culture came in awful handy: the Scots-Irish guy would just claim that his wife wasn’t Indian (or they’d hide entirely), and their family would be protected from government terror. Their protection was predicated on a denial of being Cherokee, however. So the family memories became very fuzzy. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/22 "2009-07-13T01:42:16Z")
Got a similar situation as that in my own family history, Dorkness. (Not Cherokee, though.) ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/23 "2009-07-13T01:54:01Z")
> [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > Given that you have both repeatedly claimed and repeatedly demonstrated that you have crap lousy judgment when it comes to discourse, _anything_ you claim is automatically suspect. You may wish to reacquaint yourself with [this story](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/473/473-h/473-h.htm#boywolf). If you want to go after **Lib** on a personal level, pls. do so in the Pit. twickster, MPSIMS mod ---
**Author:** ![Zhen\_ka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zhen\_ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zhen_ka)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/24 "2009-07-13T03:42:21Z")
So, you have no living or deceased relative that is on any roll or can claim tribal membership? You spoke to a _switchboard operator_. Maybe, just maybe, you should dial the number you so courteously provided (make sure that the area code is correct, though :rolleyes:, you know what a stickler **tom** is) and speak directly to the enrollment office. Otherwise…you only have your grandmother’s “dark eyes and spade nose, and high cheek bones, and long gray hair…” to cite, and well, that’s just like all the other people who claim that they are descended from Cherokee princesses. And what, exactly, is a “spade nose?” ps. I would really like to see you post a MPSIMS thread about tutoring native youth or spending your fabulous wealth providing scholarships to those poor Cherokee kids who could not register because they are not infants and are not eligible for tribal scholarships. You know, instead of a bullshit thread with no information (or outright lies) just to claim victim status for a debate thread you were losing. Do you actually know any Cherokee people? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/25 "2009-07-13T03:43:25Z")
Since we have several times had real life meetings with **Lib** and were guests in his home for a weekend, I can vouch for the fact that he is the son of a (I believe full blood) Cherokee. While **Lib** has some – unique – perspectives on quite a wide range of issues, I’ve never been able to fathom the intense dislike some have for his views. In his shoes, I’d feel rather strongly about Andrew Jackson’s Indian policies. ---
**Author:** ![Zhen\_ka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zhen\_ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zhen_ka)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/26 "2009-07-13T03:43:32Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > If you want to go after **Lib** on a personal level, pls. do so in the Pit. > > twickster, MPSIMS mod Liberal posted information that is suspect. That is not a personal insult. ---
**Author:** ![Zhen\_ka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecccb3/32.png) [@Zhen\_ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zhen_ka)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/27 "2009-07-13T03:44:50Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Since we have several times had real life meetings with **Lib** and were guests in his home for a weekend, I can vouch for the fact that he is the son of a (I believe full blood) Cherokee. > > While **Lib** has some – unique – perspectives on quite a wide range of issues, I’ve never been able to fathom the intense dislike some have for his views. In his shoes, I’d feel rather strongly about Andrew Jackson’s Indian policies. Please…you vouch for him because he pays you. Oh, and someone should really alert the Cherokee…all they need is Polycarp’s purchased word to vouch for tribal members. Think of all the money they’d save with, like, rolls and record keeping and, you know, a whole Enrollment office. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/28 "2009-07-13T03:50:12Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But you missed a statute: > > 75.18 > > The Tribal Council of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians shall be empowered to enact ordinances governing the adoption of new members. Yes, but in a cursory search, I haven’t seen any ordinances or codes doing that. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but if you’re interested in membership, you might consider an attorney specializing in tribal law. Don’t just rely on something the switchboard operator tells you on the phone, because she might have incorrect or incomplete information, and might not be qualified to make the claims. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/29 "2009-07-13T06:31:17Z")
> [@CateAyo](#): > > It is interesting that we are the only people who are required to show documentations to prove we are who we claim to be. You might find [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/magazine/02jewishness-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1) on the hoops American Jews have to jump through in Israel in order to marry interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/30 "2009-07-13T11:08:47Z")
> [@Zhen\_ka](#): > > ps. I would really like to see you post a MPSIMS thread about tutoring native youth or spending your fabulous wealth providing scholarships to those poor Cherokee kids who could not register because they are not infants and are not eligible for tribal scholarships. Vitriol aside, this is something I’ve gotten both from Native Americans and from Irish: a distaste for people who claim membership in a culture based on their ancestors’ membership in the culture. I think Sherman Alexie has riffed off this before, suggesting that someone who grew up among white Americans off the reservation, who doesn’t regularly participate in Indian folkways or customs, who celebrates Christmas as a mainstream American, etc., ought to proudly claim membership in mainstream American culture instead of claiming a cultural identity they don’t have. It’s an interesting question. What makes you a member of an ethnicity: nature or nurture? (edit: I’ve got no information about the extent of Lib’s participation in any Cherokee culture; this post is talking in the abstract, not the specific) ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/31 "2009-07-13T12:37:08Z")
> [@Zhen\_ka](#): > > Liberal posted information that is suspect. That is not a personal insult. I didn’t say he had issued a personal insult; I said he was going after **Lib** on a personal level. Read the post in question again: > [@Hunter\_Hawk](#): > > Given that you have both repeatedly claimed and repeatedly demonstrated that you have crap lousy judgment when it comes to discourse, _anything_ you claim is automatically suspect. You may wish to reacquaint yourself with [this story](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/473/473-h/473-h.htm#boywolf). That is an attack on the person, not the post. As is this, to **Polycarp** : > [@Zhen\_ka](#): > > Please…you vouch for him because he pays you. We are in MPSIMS, and these attacks are not appropriate here. If you – either of you – wish to go after **Lib** on a personal level, pls. do so in the Pit. This is a (strongly worded) request, not a warning, but I am speaking as a moderator. twickster, MPSIMS mod ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/32 "2009-07-13T12:47:47Z")
LHoD is righ on in his posts. It’s getting pretty bad. In fact, Black Indians [have been evicted](http://www.rachelstavern.com/uncategorized/white-indians-kick-black-indians-out-of-cherokee-tribe.html) from the Cherokee Nation — those who were on the so-called Freedman roll (which was established at the same time as the Dawes roll). Since it’s the Dawes roll that’s used for “whites”, one assumes it’s the Oklahoma tribe. In any case, enrollment suited the nation at the time, when the Cherokee tribe (one nation then) wanted to secede. But now, I suppose there is no longer any need for blacks, even those with proven ancestry on the required rolls. ---
**Author:** ![CateAyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@CateAyo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CateAyo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/33 "2009-07-13T13:12:37Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > You might find [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/magazine/02jewishness-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1) on the hoops American Jews have to jump through in Israel in order to marry interesting. Thank you. That was informative. ---
**Author:** ![CateAyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@CateAyo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CateAyo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/34 "2009-07-13T13:17:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I asked Freeman Owl, a local Cherokee guy who does a fair amount of educational research, exactly this question (given a similar story in my own family history). His first answer was that those Cherokee princesses sure got around, but his serious answer was pretty interesting. > > Back a few centuries ago, a lot of white folks who moved to western NC did so to get the hell away from everyone. It was pretty common for these folks to be single white men. There were a lot more male white settlers than female white settlers. They started looking at the local ladies, who tended to be Cherokee. > > Under other circumstances, marriage might have been difficult. But the Cherokee are matrilineal: when a Scots-Irish guy married a Cherokee woman, the Cherokee considered the children to be Cherokee also. So there was no problem for them in the intermarriage, and the white guy didn’t really have alternatives. > > So that’s the first part: there was a lot of intermarriage. > > But why are these family histories so tenuous, and why aren’t the descendants considered Cherokee today? > > The answer is in the Trail of Tears. When the Order came down to relocate Cherokee, a lot of these mixed-race families hid. And the patrilineality of Scots-Irish culture came in awful handy: the Scots-Irish guy would just claim that his wife wasn’t Indian (or they’d hide entirely), and their family would be protected from government terror. Their protection was predicated on a denial of being Cherokee, however. So the family memories became very fuzzy. > > Daniel Daniel, This pretty much represents the similar dynamic amongst the Creek as well. The relationship between the Scots, Scot-Irish and the southeastern tribes is fascinating in that one finds cultures that one would expect would mix like oil and water apparently fused rather nicely. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/35 "2009-07-13T14:46:30Z")
> [@CateAyo](#): > > Daniel, > > This pretty much represents the similar dynamic amongst the Creek as well. The relationship between the Scots, Scot-Irish and the southeastern tribes is fascinating in that one finds cultures that one would expect would mix like oil and water apparently fused rather nicely. Yeah–I was kind of surprised to hear how well they worked alongside one another. Not trying to romanticize early contact in any way, but I think early Scots-Irish settlers tended to be ornery cusses and social malcontents who really just wanted to be left alone a lot of the time. They didn’t have much in teh way of grandiose plans for changing the area; they just wanted to set up their shop and be able to live without interference. That was a lot more palatable to the folks already living in these mountains than when people wanted to wipe the slate clean. It didn’t always work that way, of course; the great WNC Revolutionary War Hero [John Sevier](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Sevier) earned his fame by killing Indians, a pretty horrific reminder of what things could be like. But for awhile, and in certain areas, the two cultures seemed to coexist well. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/36 "2009-07-13T15:10:51Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > You might find [this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/magazine/02jewishness-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1) on the hoops American Jews have to jump through in Israel in order to marry interesting. Yeah, that’s why I got married abroad. They wouldn’t have given us any problems - hell, the Chief Rabbi of Haifa offered to marry us personally - but it was a matter of principle. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/37 "2009-07-13T17:17:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Not trying to romanticize early contact in any way, but I think early Scots-Irish settlers tended to be ornery cusses and social malcontents who really just wanted to be left alone a lot of the time. Ah, family. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/38 "2009-07-13T19:10:31Z")
> [@CateAyo](#): > > It is interesting that we are the only people who are required to show documentations to prove we are who we claim to be. When you’ve got douchebags like Ward Churchill stealing reserved jobs\*, money and benefits from legitimate Native Americans, I don’t see that there’s a choice. If there’s gonna be government benefits, quota-jobs\*, etc for Native Americans, there’s gotta be a way to make sure that the government doesn’t give bennies to frauds like him. \*“special opportunity position.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/39 "2009-07-13T20:51:49Z")
You make some good points, Fenris: > [@Fenris](#): > > When you’ve got douchebags like Ward Churchill stealing reserved jobs\*, money and benefits from legitimate Native Americans, I don’t see that there’s a choice. That’s something for Indians to be vigilant about just like Christians should be vigilant about televangelists. And [there is vigilance](http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/nativeamerican/2009/04/is-ward-churchill-and-imposter-indian-the-evidence-strongly-suggests-that-he-isand-what-is-this-with.html) out there. > [@](#): > > If there’s gonna be government benefits, quota-jobs\*, etc for Native Americans, there’s gotta be a way to make sure that the government doesn’t give bennies to frauds like him. The best way to deal with that is for the government to stop doing those things. It is, for me, one of the most interesting questions about the Obama administration. We’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735/40 "2009-07-13T23:07:23Z")
I know I’d trade my Cherokee heritage for a $20 bill in a heartbeat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eastern-band-of-cherokee-is-currently-accepting-only-infants-for-membership/502735.md?page=3)