# The economic roots of fascism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2024, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349 "2024-10-28T13:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/21 "2024-10-28T18:10:41Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > Ulfreida, as usual, is correct in her analysis: the problem is capitalism, and defending its twisted logic is unhelpful. That explains why non capitalist states give their citizens standards of living that are so much higher than the squalor that runs rampant through capitalist regimes. Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/22 "2024-10-28T18:12:27Z")
A large part of the reason why policies providing living wages, affordable housing, etc. are out of our reach is that working-class white people vote against their own economic interests. If less-educated white working-class males want policies that help them, they need to meet us halfway by joining the Democratic coalition and pushing it farther in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/23 "2024-10-28T18:41:17Z")
still waiting for those proposals. ---
**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/24 "2024-10-28T18:45:57Z")
The Democratic Party would have to adopt a Bernie-Sanders-like focus on things like raising the minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/25 "2024-10-28T18:51:37Z")
You want a proposal for how to eradicate fascism and totalitarian tendencies from the human species? Sorry; the only one I’ve got is evolution, which is not guaranteed to happen, and will take multiple generations if it does. I think we might, actually, be improving slightly; but unfortunately our destructive abilities have been improving rapidly. You want a proposal to improve income levels for lower-income people of all genders and skin tones? Harris has a batch of them. But they won’t happen unless she not only wins, but has a D-majority House and Senate to work with. And the people you’re talking about won’t vote for any of that (though a lot of lower-income people of all genders and skin tones will); and neither will the fascists who you’re not talking about because they’ve got enough money to live comfortably or considerably more than that. Let’s just hope – whatever our income levels and genders and skin tones – that they’re outnumbered at the polls. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/26 "2024-10-28T19:02:27Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > As for the many critics of my thesis, I’d like to hear your counter-proposals. Tick tock. I’m still waiting to answer _my_ question, because without it I don’t even know for sure what your thesis is supposed to be: > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Just so we’re clear, **do you understand that neither the NYT chart nor the text of the article itself provide any evidence that non-college white men are making less than non-college white females, non-college blacks, non-college asians, or non-college hispanics?** ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/27 "2024-10-28T20:43:52Z")
Of course. The point of the article was about how the relative economic status has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/28 "2024-10-28T20:44:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Let’s just hope – whatever our income levels and genders and skin tones – that they’re outnumbered at the polls. I’m actively praying that. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/29 "2024-10-28T20:50:47Z")
Premise is complete bullshit. 1) J6 was mostly above average 2) non-college white men are still making more real wages. The graph DOES NOT SAY THEY LOST INCOME. It says they lost it RELATIVE TO other groups. Also, they’re still way above non-college minority groups. What they lost was a sense of superiority to the groups they’re racist against. It’s racial and social grievance, not economic. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/30 "2024-10-28T21:01:16Z")
So what you are saying is there is no hope for us as a country. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/31 "2024-10-28T21:06:59Z")
As long as the prospect of more equality is a valid excuse for violent counter-revolution, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/32 "2024-10-28T21:36:05Z")
There has never been a socialist state and the deformations of North Korea and its ilk have no lessons for us. The responses to Ulfrieda are evidence that the SDMB is not the haven of the left some of its critics and supporters think it is. If there are other economic roots to fascism, what are they? If there are no economic roots to fascism, where does it come from? The notion that racism and sexism are just “human nature” is pretty fatuous, so where does fascism come from? That’s the issue of the original post. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/33 "2024-10-28T21:36:36Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > So what you are saying is there is no hope for us as a country. Right? No. Only that it’s not as simple as “get poor white men better jobs.” ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/34 "2024-10-28T21:47:46Z")
This may be the real answer. But the nation-state and capitalism have been short-lived experiments, the US empire an even shorter one, so perhaps the future’s so bright we have to wear shades? Not saying we wouldn’t get our hair messed in the transition, but clearly the present course is unsustainable. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/35 "2024-10-28T21:51:18Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > There has never been a socialist state and the deformations of North Korea and its ilk have no lessons for us You did not just go with the “Real Socialism has never been tried” line of argument, did you? [![](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5WUU7qWEAAncvg.jpg) ](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5WUU7qWEAAncvg.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/36 "2024-10-28T22:07:46Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > The notion that racism and sexism are just “human nature” is pretty fatuous, so where does fascism come from? Is it fatuous to suggest that there’s a strong component of human nature that defaults to simple answers to complex problems? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/37 "2024-10-28T23:05:17Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Of course. Then your second premise: > [@Ulfreida](#): > > It seems to me that any efforts would be hampered mainly from two directions. One, the conservative desire to never approve any national policies for the public good, and two, the liberal abhorrence of the violent rhetoric and actions of both the above groups which has made them unwilling to help them. …is completely beside the point, even if we assume it to be true (for the sake of argument). Because the real problem you have identified is not about the unique challenges facing white males without college degrees, but rather the general issue of how society seems to have become less livable for people of any stripe without a college degree (and, implicitly, those living in low-income households). Thus, whether or not liberals have some abhorrence of the violent rhetoric and actions of [white men without college degrees?] is irrelevant, because liberals (or, more precisely, progressives) would be just tickled to death to have the chance to enact legislation that improves conditions for lower-income households and makes them more viable within society. So the solution, to me, seems quite simple: vote progressive in the primaries, and vote Democrat in the general election. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/38 "2024-10-28T23:10:35Z")
It may be a tangent, but our choice today is between a moderate Republican (Harris) and a fascist. There aren’t any liberals, much less progressives, in the presidential contest and they are a rare bird elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/39 "2024-10-28T23:13:25Z")
Then you are very much mistaken as to the definition of “liberal.” And “Republican” for that matter. And you’ve completely ignored (like, word for word) my solution: vote progressive in the primaries, democrat in the general. ETA: And are you seriously asking “how can we solve the problem of a rising fascist movement between _now and the election, other than by voting for the non-fascist candidate_?” ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/40 "2024-10-28T23:17:41Z")
Agreed. Which is not to say we should always abstain from elections, in my view, as fascism is worse than moderate Republicanism, but it does mean we are usually forced to choose between the evil of two lessers, as Bertell Ollman put it. As for the notion that socialism has been tried, I recommend those who take that view look up “state capitalism.” And we have made no progress on the question “whence fascism if not from economic failure?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349.md?page=3)