# The economic roots of fascism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2024, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349 "2024-10-28T13:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/41 "2024-10-28T23:24:38Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Then you are very much mistaken as to the definition of “liberal.” > > And “Republican” for that matter. There is no hard definition of either one, so I’m not sure one can be mistaken. My definition of moderate Republican dates from the 1970’s at least. Harris would fit into the Republican party at that point. They were for building infrastructure, a functioning bureaucracy, aggressive foreign policy, and were surprisingly interested in increasing the social safety net, within an overall concern for fiscal prudence. At the time I thought they were entirely loathsome, but nothing like time to give perspective. My definition of liberal also dates from then. George McGovern, for example, was a classic liberal. Harris is a distance to the right of McGovern. I don’t define socialism, since one can point to Sweden or to North Korea and call them socialist. Which means the term has about as much meaning as ‘freedom’. Fascism is clear though, and getting clearer all the time. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/42 "2024-10-28T23:38:11Z")
I’d appreciate if you read what I wrote, and respond to it, and not presume I am using some idiosyncratic, non-standard, or antiquated definition of “Democrat.” I also never even mentioned socialism, so I don’t know who you think you’re responding to there. So, again, what is your issue with what I actually wrote: if you don’t want the US to continue along a path to fascism, vote progressive in the primaries, and Democrat in the general election? Now that I have pointed out the faulty assumption in your OP (that we can only avert fascism through policies that uniquely favor white men without college degrees, which “liberals” as you call them would supposedly balk at), it should be relatively clear that one party (and one particular wing of that party especially), wherever it might fall on a broader political spectrum apart from our contemporary US two-party system, is much more likely to enact the sort of policies that would improve the lives of people without college degrees of all stripes than the other. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2024, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/43 "2024-10-28T23:58:01Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > My definition of moderate Republican dates from the 1970’s at least. Then your definition dates from when both parties had ideological wings. Blue dog Democrats, “boll weevils” and Dixiecrats. Progressive Republicans, the Reagan coalition, and the liberal Rockefeller Republicans. > **[Factions in the Democratic Party (United States)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factions_in_the_Democratic_Party_(United_States))** > > The Democratic Party of the United States is a party composed of various factions. The liberal faction supports modern liberalism that began with the New Deal in the 1930s and continued with both the New Frontier and Great Society in the 1960s. The moderate faction supports Third Way politics that includes center-left social policies and centrist fiscal policies. The progressive faction supports progressivism. > Modern liberalism in the United States began during the Progressive Era with Preside... > **[Factions in the Republican Party (United States)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factions_in_the_Republican_Party_(United_States))** > > The Republican Party in the United States includes several factions, or wings. During the 19th century, Republican factions included the Half-Breeds, who supported civil service reform; the Radical Republicans, who advocated the immediate and total abolition of slavery, and later advocated civil rights for freed slaves during the Reconstruction era; and the Stalwarts, who supported machine politics. > In the 20th century, Republican factions included the Progressive Republicans, the Reagan coaliti... ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/44 "2024-10-29T00:18:07Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > The notion that racism and sexism are just “human nature” is pretty fatuous, so where does fascism come from? Racism and sexism are parts of human nature. They’re not the only parts; but it isn’t fatuous to say that behavior that’s been part of so many human societies is human nature. Fighting them is also human nature. We are an odd species, possibly on our way to becoming a different one; if we survive long enough. Responding to the apparent authority of what seems to be the toughest male is part of human, and primate, nature. In humans I call this the “king reflex.” I haven’t got it. Terry Pratchett apparently didn’t have it. A lot of people don’t have it. But a lot of people do; and denying this, when so many human societies have indeed gone in for kings and so many human groups obey a “strong leader” even to the major detriment of many members of the group including obedient ones, doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Fascism isn’t monarchy. But it combines that Authority of the Big Man with relying on keeping power by keeping as many people as possible afraid of the Out-Group. And it is part of human nature to be afraid of the Other – just as it’s also part of human nature to be attracted to the Other, and to want to learn from, make friends with, make mates of the Others. Both of those impulses are part of us. Some individuals have more of one, some more of the other; but they’re certainly both part of the species. Nothing fatuous at all about saying so. Capitalist and communist societies are both liable to being taken over by totalitarians. In the relatively short chunk of history since those systems were invented, communism seems to be the more liable. But neither of them is immune; and neither of them is a guarantee of protection. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > My definition of moderate Republican dates from the 1970’s at least. The parties were in the process of switching places at that stage, and both included quite a large range. They’ve diverged considerably since. The lineup of particular positions has also changed around a good deal. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/45 "2024-10-29T00:23:19Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > So, again, what is your issue with what I actually wrote: if you don’t want the US to continue along a path to fascism, vote progressive in the primaries, and Democrat in the general election? I have no argument with you. Of course vote that way! I didn’t start the topic to talk about how to vote, that is a given. I was interested in possible policies and programs that might damp enthusiasm for fascism. Haven’t heard any here, and now, I’m pretty sure I’m not going to. Just the same old arguments. Sorry I began the topic. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/46 "2024-10-29T02:12:38Z")
You want me to point to specific progressive policies that would improve things for low-income households, including white men without a college degree? Okay: universal healthcare, universal basic income, and government subsidized low-income housing initiatives, all funded by (1) more of the same progressive income tax and (2) a wealth tax. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/47 "2024-10-29T02:23:25Z")
This. It really is that simple to describe. And also that impossible to enact over the violent objections of the people it would help. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/48 "2024-10-29T02:27:12Z")
Yeah, massively expanding medicare is totally a Republican goal. So is codifying abortion rights. WTF are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/49 "2024-10-29T02:37:31Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I mean, _should_ white men without a college degree be making more on average than Blacks, Asians, and Hispanics on average, even when considering those _with_ a degree? This. Saying that white men’s average income had fallen relative to everyone else’s is the same as saying everyone else’s average income has been rising to the point where it’s approaching the white male average. That’s not a problem. There’s no reason why white men should have higher incomes than women or non-whites. Thinking that white men are inherently supposed to be better off as part of some natural order is, at its roots, racism. So we shouldn’t be doing anything to push white men back up above everyone else. And I’m a white man saying this. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/50 "2024-10-29T02:38:21Z")
The whole premise is fucked. The way to stop the RELATIVE decline in the incomes of lower educated white men is to preserve and reinforce discrimination in favor of white men. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/51 "2024-10-29T02:46:34Z")
Well, more accurately the way to deal with white men turning to Fascism because they’re angry about losing _relative_ status is to re-educate them that their better status was both a historical accident and a crime against nature. Not necessarily their individual fault that it was that way, but totally their individual fault if they can’t accept that the unique 30 years post WWII when our blue collar parents got rich was an one-time anomaly that cannot, and should not, be repeated. You want to do well in the 21st century, you gotta bust ass in the brains department, not the brawn department. And _everyone_ is your competition, not just the other white men while all the non-white or non-male people were already preselected to be losers. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/52 "2024-10-29T03:06:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Thinking that white men are inherently supposed to be better off as part of some natural order is, at its roots, racism. We mustn’t judge too harshly. This is their first time accepting their actual value to society. Have you never felt a sudden rush of panic? Yeah, that’s the systemic racism we talked about. It takes experience to master it. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/53 "2024-10-29T03:11:42Z")
Yeah, that was my other post in my thread. Totally about a loss of “status” rather than some sort of material decline. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/54 "2024-10-29T03:14:04Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > We mustn’t judge too harshly. This is their first time accepting their actual value to society. Have you never felt a sudden rush of panic? Yeah, that’s the systemic racism we talked about. It takes experience to master it. I feel I’m entitled to judge. Like I said, I’m an old white guy. If I can figure out racism and sexism are wrong then anyone should be able to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/55 "2024-10-29T03:28:46Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > You want me to point to specific progressive policies that would improve things for low-income households, including white men without a college degree? No she wants policies that will help _only_ white men without a college degree. I don’t know why, but she apparently thinks they must earn more than someone like me who worked hard to get my college degrees, or else they are justified in burning the place down. I guess they just deserve it more. Once again the only strategy we get from people like her is pandering. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/56 "2024-10-29T03:39:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I feel I’m entitled to judge. Me too! I was just, almost verbatimly, quoting Trump’s favorite asylum seeking actor Hannibal Lecter! ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/57 "2024-10-29T11:29:33Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > No she wants policies that will help _only_ white men without a college degree This is not true, but I find that the willful misunderstanding of both the people involved and myself is so overpowering that I am bowing out. There is no arguing with closed minds. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/58 "2024-10-29T11:49:11Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > This. It really is that simple to describe. And also that impossible to enact over the violent objections of the people it would help. I would probably also be impossible to enact over the violent objections of the people who would have to pay for all that. I feel like there is this misconception that it’s just poor uneducated white men who have fascist leanings. I feel like the leftist narrative that all problems will be solved if we tax the rich to “help the dumb white racist poor people in spite of themselves” is dangerously naive and elitist. It seems to me that people turn to fascism when they feel like they are being unfairly imposed upon by some outside force (or illegitimate internal force). They look for a strong leader who will set things right in their mind. So it’s not just poor uneducated white men. It’s also middle and upper middle class men with good jobs or who own businesses who feel they are being imposed on by liberal woke regulations and high taxes on their hard-earned labor going to immigrants and unemployables. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/59 "2024-10-29T11:53:06Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So it’s not just poor uneducated white men. It’s also middle and upper middle class men with good jobs or who own businesses who feel they are being imposed on by liberal woke regulations A word “woke” they can not define and “regulations” they can not specify. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2024, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349/60 "2024-10-29T11:55:43Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > A word “woke” they can not define and “regulations” they can not specify As I’m sure you very well know, the human mind does not require definitions or specificity to feel very, very strongly about things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economic-roots-of-fascism/1009349.md?page=4)