# The Economics of Trolling, the SDMB, and Moderator Decisions. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 15, 2019, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474 "2019-11-15T03:57:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/81 "2019-11-15T19:18:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It abso-fucking-lutely was to be “informative”. It first got mentioned as a direct response to this query by **Procrustus** : > > If this were really about the whistleblower, at least some of your anger ought to be directed at **Procrustus** for asking about it, but I don’t think it really has much of anything to do with Ciaramella’s identity. I think it’s mostly posters mad at me and looking for an excuse to try and have me silenced. Im more than happy for you to continue on exposing yourself for what you are. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/82 "2019-11-15T19:18:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, fair enough. How about calling other posters “assholes” and “virulently unpleasant” in ATMB? > > Regards, > Shodan I, too, would appreciate an answer to this question. (Although I’m not holding my breath). Are we allowed to call other posters assholes and trolls in ATMB? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/83 "2019-11-15T19:19:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I have the same question, but … I don’t think **JohnT** was warned. This thread got started not based off a warning he received but as an announcement that he has decided not to renew his membership. Nope, you are wrong. You can actually click on the little blue arrow next to the quote in the OP that says “That’ll earn you a warning John” to see that he did, in fact, receive a warning. I’m as surprised as you, since “Don’t engage with HD” has been the standard “high road” response to how to deal with your particular brand of threadshitting for _months_, and I’ve never seen anyone get warned for it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/84 "2019-11-15T19:21:00Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > This is so utterly wrong-headed that it deserves further comment. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the role of the moderators, which is very surprising coming from a former moderator. > > Our role is _not_ to decide which side of an argument is right or wrong. It’s to serve as referees between the sides. Even in GQ, if someone posts something that is blatantly factually incorrect, it’s not my role _as a moderator_ to correct it. Instead, I will correct it _as a poster_, or leave it to other posters to correct it. > > If moderators started to moderate based on their personal views of what is right and wrong, I can guarantee you wouldn’t like it, especially considering there is a diversity of views on the moderation staff. What is being questioned here aren’t the facts. What is being questioned here is the behavior that some are saying go against the rules laid out by the mods and admin, and moderating behavior of that sort _was_ something we did way back in my time. BTW, I haven’t been a moderator for a _very_ long time, and have been out of that loop for about the same time. The board has changed owners more than once in that time and I for all I know in that amount of time the role of the moderators may have shifted over the years. I have no way of knowing what is said and done behind the scenes, and I have no right to know. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/85 "2019-11-15T19:21:28Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Nope, you are wrong. You can actually click on the little blue arrow next to the quote in the OP that says “That’ll earn you a warning John” to see that he did, in fact, receive a warning. > > I’m as surprised as you, since “Don’t engage with HD” has been the standard “high road” response to how to deal with your particular brand of threadshitting for _months_, and I’ve never seen anyone get warned for it. Now, you do understand that suggestions like that in a person’s Pit Thread is much different than suggestions like that in non Pit Threads? :dubious::dubious::dubious::dubious: ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/86 "2019-11-15T19:23:24Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Now, you do understand that suggestions like that in a person’s Pit Thread is much different than suggestions like that in non Pit Threads? :dubious::dubious::dubious::dubious: Yes, and I’ve already started reporting posts outside the pit that say this. There are many. :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/87 "2019-11-15T19:29:21Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I, too, would appreciate an answer to this question. (Although I’m not holding my breath). Are we allowed to call other posters assholes and trolls in ATMB? If this has happened, have you hit the “Report” button? That’s what I do when I want to report something to the mods. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/88 "2019-11-15T19:30:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If this has happened, have you hit the “Report” button? That’s what I do when I want to report something to the mods. If you read the OP, you’d have seen that that has in fact happened. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/89 "2019-11-15T19:33:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > If you read the OP, you’d have seen that that has in fact happened. And you hit the “report” button? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/90 "2019-11-15T19:36:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you hit the “report” button? Hey, if the OP was Hurricane it would have been reported 20 times already. The bias is in the posters. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/91 "2019-11-15T19:50:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If this has happened, have you hit the “Report” button? That’s what I do when I want to report something to the mods. Multiple mods have posted multiple times since then. I’m quite sure they read the OP. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/92 "2019-11-15T20:23:54Z")
Just jumping in here to ask a few questions so my ignorance is fought and I can be a good Doper. 🙂 I get it that accusations of trolling and telling others not to respond to a poster aren’t allowed. But if someone sees a poster act trollishly (but not merit mod intervention) and says something like, “Just a reminder that responding to trollish behavior is counter-productive” without quoting or referring in any way to a specific poster, would that be allowable, or is it junior modding? (I could see either.) A few posters have mastered skating-just-to-the-line behavior. Since they clearly must not merit modding, is the only recourse that each individual Doper decides independently not to respond? That doesn’t seem to work very well, I think because trollish skaters know if they say something inflammatory enough, people will feel compelled to respond. And any response seems to exacerbate the trollish behavior, which in turn derails substantive, legitimate debate. Are there any effective, Dope-legal means of non-mods dealing with the trollish? (Sorry if this is a hijack. I’ll gladly start a new ATMB thread if so.) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/93 "2019-11-15T21:11:26Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Are we allowed to call other posters assholes and trolls in ATMB? No, you are not. Everyone is expected to treat other users with respect while in this forum. Let’s all knock off the insults and dial back the anger, please. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/94 "2019-11-15T21:14:32Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > But if someone sees a poster act trollishly (but not merit mod intervention) and says something like, “Just a reminder that responding to trollish behavior is counter-productive” without quoting or referring in any way to a specific poster, would that be allowable, or is it junior modding? (I could see either.) It depends on the circumstances, but in most cases it would be fairly clear who you are referring to, and would therefore be a blatant accusation of trolling outside of the Pit. Even if the target isn’t clear, it comes off as junior modding, and would probably be moderated for that. If you wish to discuss this further, please start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/95 "2019-11-15T21:16:22Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Just jumping in here to ask a few questions so my ignorance is fought and I can be a good Doper. 🙂 > > I get it that accusations of trolling and telling others not to respond to a poster aren’t allowed. But if someone sees a poster act trollishly (but not merit mod intervention) and says something like, “Just a reminder that responding to trollish behavior is counter-productive” without quoting or referring in any way to a specific poster, would that be allowable, or is it junior modding? (I could see either.) In my opinion, this is more of a sort of message you would send in private. If you’re sitting at the Thanksgiving dinner table and that one family member is going off on politics, you don’t loudly exclaim a generic “Just a reminder, don’t feed the trolls”. That’s a jerk move and everybody knows who you are talking about. If you must, you lean over and whisper, or send some indiscreet nonverbal “IGNORE HIM”. But really all of the above is passive aggressive. What you should do is, you let people who want to talk with him do so, you ignore that and join some more interesting side conversation. If a question is directed your way and the subject is outside of the scope you want to talk about, then it’s appropriate to say you don’t want to talk about that. That’s my opinion, anyways. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/96 "2019-11-15T21:23:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not what the post you’re responding to is about. Yeah, it is. You might consider the possibility that you’re biased.😉 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/97 "2019-11-15T21:30:01Z")
So, before I read the responses, let me just say this to make my position clear: **I did not start this thread to complain about moderator decisions**. The question of whether my joke was worse/better comparatively to Ditkas personal insults is not what I’m interested in. The mods made their decisions, they are now offering their post hoc rationalizations and justifications, and that’s cool, but that’s not what this thread is about. Feel free to discuss this… and Lord knows it appears you have… but I’m not going to respond to questions of those nature. Just FYI. This thread is to discuss the _business and financial impact_ the moderation is having on the SDMB. And if there is anything I am, it’s a business person. It’s what I’ve done since a kid - I was reading balance sheets and income statements when I was 10, I had _that_ kind of following. And so much of my perspective about things tends to be business-oriented. Managerial. Financial. Production. Etc. To wit: There’s a woman in charge of Publishing at the Chicago Reader named [Tracy Baim](https://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/readerstaff/Page). Tracy, being the Publisher (i.e., head operations person), has full P&L responsibility for the Chicago Reader, including the issue of monetizing the Straight Dope Message Board, a property which came to the STM Reader, LLC group in a buyout. This isn’t merely just an issue of trying to sell ads, Tracy… or the business executives who work with her… also needs to prove the worth of the SDMB to the Board (also listed in the above link) and convince the Board that the SDMB is a financially viable property, so they may decide to continue funding operations. (Note that Tuba Diva admitted this place already operates at a loss, cited in my OP.) So, I pay $7.50/year to stay here. A NPV calculation on the value of the next decade’s worth of income, assuming a 3% inflationary rate, is $63.98. Everyone of us who has a Charter Membership represents, today, $63.98 of potential revenue in real (today’s) dollars) for the investors. For members, who have less emotional investment in this place at twice the price, the consequences of the moderator actions on the NPV of the SDMB is doubled: For every member who decides to no longer subsidize lies and harassment, the NPV of the SDMB decreases by $127.95. And the odds of them coming back (as a paying member) are even lesser than the above paragraph’s situation. And for every guest? Well, their direct (paid subscription) revenue loss = $0. Because they’re not paying anyway. In short: **Every time a Charter Member decides to no longer pay, the value of the SDMB to its investors decreases by $63.98. Every time a regular member decides to no longer renew, the value of the future cash flows of that member to the SDMB (and investors) drops $127.95. And every time a guest decides not to pay because of trolling, future cash flows are decreased by $127.95.** And if I’m Tracy Baim, and I’m looking at active membership levels (defined as registered users who signed in within the last 60 days), I’m seeing the following trend: 5/23/2011, 11,167 active members 9/1/2013, 6289 9/28/2015, 5410 2/20/2017, 4489 6/4/2017, 4063 11/15/2019, 3,343 [Cite](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20253708#post20253708) If I’m Tracy, I’m asking some questions about “What the hell is happening and why this place can’t even keep its long-time members to keep paying for its services?” So, let’s look at the potential revenues lost, shall we? In the past 8 years we have lost **8,000** active members. If we assume… because I don’t have the data… that 5% of those were members and 1% were charter members… then this results in a decline of SDMB NPV revenues of $51,184 for the lost memberships, and $5,118.40 for the lost Charter members (and nominal revenues of $60k and $6k respectively). (These numbers do not account for those losses generated by Active Users who let their paying status slip but are still using the site.) Now let’s look at the Economics of Trolling, which is what this discussion is about: The financial impact of moderator decisions given the SDMB’s unique business model (especially for a for-profit enterprise). First let’s define the model. The SDMB business model provides the same service to all registered users, regardless of pay. Direct revenues are generated _solely_ by generating enough goodwill so that a fraction of the members decide to make _voluntary_ payments. In addition, revenues are generated via Advertising, almost none of it direct. (And, as a side note, in my experience, clicking on that “Advertise in the SDMB” link does _not_ generate a single response, so good luck trying to monetize this place by advertising your business. But I digress.) However, this revenue generation is hobbled by a management process which doesn’t differentiate between paying guests and non-paying guests, resulting in a situation where a non-payer… by close adherence to the rules… can continually antagonize payers to the point where they refuse to pay anymore… or even get **banned**. (Like I said: Unique! Imagine being cancelled by your cable company because the guy stealing your cable lodged a complaint about you! That’s the SDMB experience from the paying customers POV. It really is.) **Ditka actions in the Impeachment thread resulted in my decision to consciously lower the 10-year NPV of the SDMB by $64.** (Note: This is not the actions of a happy customer.) I am positive… though I’m not bothering to dig up a cite… that in his 8 years as a non-paying member, I am not the only one who can say this. This site is now worth $64 less than it was last night because of this decision. It will have $75 fewer revenue real dollars over the next 10 years. **This is because Ditka is still here, acts the way he does, and the moderators allow this to continue**. And yet… I can still post! I can still be an irritant to the mods if I want to be! I can now decide to no longer pay for the SDMB and put Ditka on ignore, which had I done as a _paying_ member, would’ve avoided this mess! And I get to do this for free! Isn’t that great!?! Lol. (Man, what a business model!) If I’m Tracy Baim, a woman who likely doesn’t give a crap about Board culture and even if she did would still have to answer the question: _Is Hurricane Ditka, an unpaying member, worth my investors losing a minimum of $64 in NPV revenue for every paying Charter member he drives away and $129 for every regular Member?_\* The only way… the _only_ way… she can answer “yes” is if it can be shown that Ditka, by his high engagement metrics, pulls in either (a) additional paying members (see Active User charts above for a hint to the quality of this argument), or (b) if his activity… and the activity generated by those responding to him… generates an additional $64/$128 in NPV **for every single Charter/Member he drives off** via CPM and CPC ad revenues. And guys, I just don’t see it: 1. I don’t see the rest of you increasing your posting activity to make up for the lost revenue via CPM’s. 2. I don’t see evidence that Ditka is attracting people at a rate fast enough to recoup the lost revenue via CPM’s And so, if I were in her shoes, I cannot see Tracy making a successful **business case** to leave this place open if she’s presented with the actual situation here: unpaid volunteers who negatively impact her ability to monetize this board via a decision-making process which appears to take little regard to their fiduciary duty to the management and shareholders. And the above is a harsh sentence, I understand, but Starving Artist cost this place _thousands_ of dollars in value _every year_\*\* due to the number of people who left this place or decided membership wasn’t worth it because of him, and the moderators let this money just walk out the door, year after year after year. There were entire threads… like this one… where good posters were saying “this is intolerable, I’m leaving”, and the mods would look at this money fleeing, saying and doing nothing, letting him continue. So, that’s what I’m asking here. I would like someone to make the **business case** … not the “culture” case or the “rules-based” case… the **business case** , the **financial case** … that Ditka is worth the revenues he is losing for the SDMB. Convince me that he will generate $64/$128 in _additional_ NPV for every Charter/Member he… and the others… drive off. Thank you. \*(I mean, hell, does Tracey even know y’all ban paying members?) \*\*It only takes 8 people to decide “the SDMB isn’t worth it” for a single troll to cost this place $1,000 in 10-year projected NPV. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/98 "2019-11-15T21:34:48Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Yeah, it is. You might consider the possibility that you’re biased.😉 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/99 "2019-11-15T21:37:20Z")
Have no idea why: “I had that kind of family.” ended up as… “I had that kind of following.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474/100 "2019-11-15T21:37:58Z")
I’d like to suggest that your attempt to reduce board members’ contributions to a NPV dollar amount, if successful, is going to do a lot more to drive away members than anything / everything I’ve ever done on the SDMB. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economics-of-trolling-the-sdmb-and-moderator-decisions/843474.md?page=6)