# The economy is doing great **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 20, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764 "2007-01-20T22:56:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/41 "2007-01-23T14:12:47Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] I guess we _could_ say—the Economy is doing _great_…for _other people_. Now…if we could only _find_ these other people… [/QUOTE] Good point. Damn the evidence. These people just don’t exist. Why didn’t I realize that sooner? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/42 "2007-01-23T14:17:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] Savings are at an all-time low. Personal Debt is at an all-time high. Bankruptcys are huge, as is the National Debt. [/QUOTE] And many of the jobs out there suck, benefits- and pay-wise. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/43 "2007-01-23T15:13:19Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] How about a statement like **Luciannes little baby boy**? [/QUOTE] I see your problem, allow me to clarify. No need to thank me, its what I do. An \*ad hominem \* argument is not simply an insult (or, in this instance, an observation). Such an argument must state or imply that the argument is faulty due to the nature of the advocate, i.e., he is a Communist, Communists always lie, therefore he is lying. Jonah Goldberg has shit for brains, and not enough shit at that. He suffers from neuro-fecal syndrome, and as a result spews utter rot with gravity and seriousness. However, I do not state that his arguments are faulty because he is shit-witted, but that he is shit-witted because his arguments are faulty. Deranged. Crazy as a craphouse mouse. Batshit pizza. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/44 "2007-01-23T16:45:43Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I see your problem, allow me to clarify. No need to thank me, its what I do. An \*ad hominem \* argument is not simply an insult (or, in this instance, an observation). Such an argument must state or imply that the argument is faulty due to the nature of the advocate, i.e., he is a Communist, Communists always lie, therefore he is lying. Jonah Goldberg has shit for brains, and not enough shit at that. He suffers from neuro-fecal syndrome, and as a result spews utter rot with gravity and seriousness. However, I do not state that his arguments are faulty because he is shit-witted, but that he is shit-witted because his arguments are faulty. Deranged. Crazy as a craphouse mouse. Batshit pizza. [/QUOTE] Via [refdesk.com](http://refdesk.com) I found the followiing definition of ad hominem: _Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason_ For the whole story see: [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ad+hominem](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ad+hominem) ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/45 "2007-01-23T17:04:26Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Good point. Damn the evidence. These people just don’t exist. Why didn’t I realize that sooner? [/QUOTE] Noone is saying that the other people don’t exist. For example, [the top 1% is doing really great! Much of the other 99%? Not so great.](http://www.cbpp.org/1-23-07inc.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/46 "2007-01-24T02:23:49Z")
[QUOTE=jshore] No one is saying that the other people don’t exist. [/QUOTE] Uhm…how about post #39 on this thread…second sentence BTW the link you supplied showed that all Americans are doing well by any historical standards. And of course, by definition the bottom 99% will not be doing “so great” as the top 1%. How could it be otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/47 "2007-01-24T02:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Actually it’s true that Jonah overstated his case a bit, but that’s what debates are for, and I appreciate the dopers who took the time and effort to point this out. I could never have the patience to do stuff like that myself. I’ll be careful about his stats in the future. [/QUOTE] This is what we get after a thorough flogging of the statements made in the OP? > [@](#): > > Still the points he made are valid. No, they’re not, as we’ve demonstrated. > [@](#): > > The economy is great. The indicators I mentioned, unemployment and inflation, are doing great. And I think those are the two most important ones. If those are the most important ones, then why even bring up the others? When those numbers crap out, then what are the most important ones going to be? > [@](#): > > And I kind of got a kick out of the ad hominem attack on Goldberg in the above post. Very persuasive stuff. More persuasive than your responses to the rebuttals to your OP. You didn’t really want a debate, did you? I guess GD is still the appropriate place for witnessing. All hail Bush! ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/48 "2007-01-24T03:14:19Z")
From Lawrecne Kudlow’s article today - more evidence that the economy is doing great and that millions are benefitting: “The fact is, jobs continue to boom. So do real incomes, productivity, and profits. Economist Michael Darda points out that real wages over the first five years of the Bush expansion are actually growing more rapidly than over the first five years of the Papa Bush/Bill Clinton boom.” “Meanwhile, unemployment today is only 4.5 percent. Federal, state, and local tax collections are soaring through the roof. Budget deficits are plunging. Inflation-adjusted GDP is averaging just more than 3 percent. Family wealth stands at a record of slightly more than $54 trillion. Total employment is at a record 146 million.” For the entire article:[Kudlow on the economy 1/23/07](http://townhall.com/columnists/LawrenceKudlow/2007/01/23/an_excellent_economic_state_of_the_union) ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/49 "2007-01-24T03:20:26Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] You didn’t really want a debate, did you? [/QUOTE] Well, I’ve made seven or eight follow-up posts and \*\*Sam Stone \*\* did such a geat job earlier that there was little I could add. Is there a minimum number of posts for an OP in GD? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2007, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/50 "2007-01-24T04:15:19Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Well, I’ve made seven or eight follow-up posts and \*\*Sam Stone \*\* did such a geat job earlier that there was little I could add. [/QUOTE] You didn’t defend the crap you posted in the OP, and Sam, who actually does engage in debate, didn’t defend a single point made in your OP as far as I could tell (nor was he attempting to). > [@](#): > > Is there a minimum number of posts for an OP in GD? One single post actually defending the OP might be a good start. As it stands, you seem to want to just keep posting links that regurgitate what your original post states, none of them actually backing it up. That’s easy to do even if one wanted to take the opposite stance. [Economy looks bad for 2007](http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11791) [Cheney thinks economy sucks](http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/40796/) [U.S. economic strength feared on shaky ground](http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-economic-strength-feared-shaky/story.aspx?guid=%7B2E318176-B819-42A1-9705-8265BB2E634A%7D&dist=) [Bernanke offers a grim warning on fiscal future](http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770119054) We can do this all day long, but without actually addressing the issues, it’s just witnessing on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/51 "2007-01-25T14:47:32Z")
Front page in Detroit Free Press today. Wayne County which includes Dtroit forclosures up 121 % this year. Oakland County one of the richest communities in the country is up 94 % . In Macomb another affluent suburb forclosures are up 197 %. Economy is booming. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/52 "2007-01-25T21:02:15Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] That’s easy to do even if one wanted to take the opposite stance. [Economy looks bad for 2007](http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11791) [Cheney thinks economy sucks](http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/40796/) [U.S. economic strength feared on shaky ground](http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-economic-strength-feared-shaky/story.aspx?guid=%7B2E318176-B819-42A1-9705-8265BB2E634A%7D&dist=) [Bernanke offers a grim warning on fiscal future](http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770119054) We can do this all day long, but without actually addressing the issues, it’s just witnessing on both sides. [/QUOTE] I think that the economy is doing great, particularly with what has happened in recent history (Gulf War, Katrina, Tech bubble, Enron scandal, etc.). The economy could be doing so much worse. However, my econ friends at a large investment bank are now telling me that 2007 is not looking so good. They’ve been pretty right on the money so far, so I have no reason to not to believe them. However, they also agree that the market is currently doing great. The best thing for the future is how the government handles taxes, and particularly how the Fed handles the interest rate. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/53 "2007-01-26T02:50:26Z")
The upper class are making an absolute fortune. If you are in the right spot you are on a great ride. However the middle class is being eviscerated. White collar jobs are disappearing fast and bankruptcy and foreclosures are cranking out. The machine tool and heavy industry is moving abroad. The jobs requiring education and skills are headed to China and India. Profits will soar. The future portends unrest. This trend can not continue forever and still be the same country. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/54 "2007-02-01T02:11:33Z")
Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread, but a few posters made the point that bankruptcies are up. I just came across the following statistics about quarterly bankruptcy rates: Oct.-Dec. 2005 667,431 Jan.-March 2006 116,771 April-June 2006 155,833 July-Sept. 2006 171,146 Not exactly an upward trend if you ask me. It is more complicated, and apparently there were more filings in 2005 in order to take advantage of preferential laws that would expire at the end of the year. For those who are interested in checking out the primary source of this data go to: > **[Caseload Statistics Data Tables](https://www.uscourts.gov/statistics-reports/caseload-statistics-data-tables)** > > Filter for statistical tables by topic, report, or date. Topics include court of appeals, district and bankruptcy courts, and the U.S. Supreme Court. The district court topic includes sub-topics for data on jury, civil, criminal, magistrate judges,... and have a ball poring over the numbers. And the intermediate source I was reading is here: > **[Opinion & Reviews - Wall Street Journal](https://www.wsj.com/news/opinion)** > > Get The Wall Street Journal’s Opinion columnists, editorials, op-eds, letters to the editor, and book and arts reviews. and just scroll down to the third story, which BTW, has two more links for those who are really interested in getting to the bottom of this. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/55 "2007-02-01T02:38:30Z")
[U.S. Economy Growing Faster Than Expected](http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/TOP%20STORY/499511/) > [@](#): > > While much of the focus has been on the Federal Reserve’s upcoming interest rate announcement, some closely watched economic data has also been released on Wednesday, including the Commerce Department’s report on fourth quarter GDP. > > The report showed that GDP grew at an annual rate of 3.5 percent in the fourth quarter compared to the 2.0 percent rate of growth that was seen in the third quarter. Economists had been expecting more modest growth of about 3.0 percent. And as for the belief around here that it’s only the rich that are doing better… [Rising Wages Lift Consumer Confidence](http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0701310039jan31,0,5309272.story?coll=chi-business-hed) > [@](#): > > Confidence among U.S. consumers reached the highest level in almost five years in January as an expanding labor market and rising wages gave Americans more money to spend. > > The Conference Board said Tuesday that its index rose to 110.3 this month, the highest level since May 2002, from a revised 110 in December. The proportion of Americans who said jobs are plentiful was the biggest since August 2001. [Consumer Confidence near Five Year High](http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-070130confidence-story,0,5360368.story?coll=chi-business-hed) > [@](#): > > Employers added 167,000 jobs in December, more than economists forecast, and the unemployment rate stayed at 4.5 percent, close to a five-year low. Workers’ average hourly earnings rose 0.5 percent, the most in eight months. > > A Labor Department report on Feb. 2 will probably show that employers added 150,000 positions this month and the unemployment rate remained unchanged, according to Bloomberg surveys of economists. I remember when people on this board were posting about the economy all the time. Remember the 2 million jobs lost after 9/11? We never heard the end of it. Now jobs are being created like mad, and have been for several years. And wages are going up at a pretty good rate. [Bush spreads the Good Economic News](http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/96728.aspx) > [@](#): > > “We certainly are concerned about the budget deficit,” [Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisors]Lazear said. “In fact our budget deficit is not high by historic standards relative to GDP, and our public debt compared to GDP is projected to shrink because the economy is growing more rapidly than our debts.” > > “The unemployment rate is down to 4.5 percent, which is not only low by historic standards, but a rate that many economists consider to be full employment,” he said. **"Real wages grew last year at a pace that exceeded that of the late 90s** , and inflation is in the mid 2 percent range. Last year saw exports grow at 13 percent while imports only grew at 5 percent, and our trade deficit came down as a result." ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/56 "2007-02-01T03:19:50Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Sorry about the delay in getting back to this thread, but a few posters made the point that bankruptcies are up. I just came across the following statistics about quarterly bankruptcy rates: Oct.-Dec. 2005 667,431 Jan.-March 2006 116,771 April-June 2006 155,833 July-Sept. 2006 171,146 Not exactly an upward trend if you ask me. [/QUOTE] VERY misleading stat. The bankruptcy laws were changed in '05 at the behest of credit card banks. :rolleyes: There was a HUGE rush to get bankruptcy filings under the wire in the last quarter of '05, before the new law kicked in making it onerous to file. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/57 "2007-02-01T03:44:57Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] VERY misleading stat. The bankruptcy laws were changed in '05 at the behest of credit card banks. :rolleyes: There was a HUGE rush to get bankruptcy filings under the wire in the last quarter of '05, before the new law kicked in making it onerous to file. [/QUOTE] Uhm…I believe that’s pretty much the point I was trying to make. To blame GWB for the high rate in 2005 is as dumb as crediting him for the drop from 2005 to 2006 ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/58 "2007-02-01T04:13:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I remember when people on this board were posting about the economy all the time. Remember the 2 million jobs lost after 9/11? We never heard the end of it. Now jobs are being created like mad, and have been for several years. And wages are going up at a pretty good rate. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the links. The fourth one especially has impressive stats. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/59 "2007-02-01T08:07:45Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I remember when people on this board were posting about the economy all the time. Remember the 2 million jobs lost after 9/11? We never heard the end of it. Now jobs are being created like mad, and have been for several years. And wages are going up at a pretty good rate. [Bush spreads the Good Economic News](http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/96728.aspx) [/QUOTE] It rains after the dance of even the most incompetent rainmaker. Years of immense deficits, and only now, six years in, are wages going up? Heck of a job, Bushie. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764/60 "2007-02-01T14:37:41Z")
> [@](#): > > We survived the 1980’s. Back then, the economic program was called ‘trickle down.’ That actually meant they were pissing on you. How the whole theory goes was this: ‘We have all the money. If we drop some, it’s yours. Go for it.’" ~~Bill Maher [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-economy-is-doing-great/388764.md?page=4)