# The Edge of the Universe **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 11, 2018, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637 "2018-02-11T18:09:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/21 "2018-02-11T21:32:26Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > That would be a wrong assumption. Everything that ever was, is and will be is in that bubble. I’m just asking what is happening at the edges. > > So let’s back off the “you’re wrong” and start providing actual, productive answers, eh? Actually, Chimera, Reimann isn’t the one who said “wrong”, you are. He’s been polite and did take the trouble to write out some pretty detailed actual, productive answers – and, though I got my astronomy degree decades ago, he seems to me to be correct. “Bubble” is an analogy, but it breaks down when one considers “edges”. There really aren’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/22 "2018-02-11T21:33:47Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > You know, this is why I’ve struggled with the idea of asking this on this board. Because instead of being gentle and informative, we have people like you on this board who fall back to telling people they’re wrong and coming all too close to being insulting, mocking and completely less than helpful. > > Do better. I think perhaps you should reread my comments and reconsider this response. Where was I remotely insulting or mocking? I pointed out quite simply and neutrally that your premise of the expansion having edges is a misconception, which it is - a common one. I have then taken the trouble to write out an extensive follow-up comment describing an analogy that I know has helped others in the past, and that I thought might be helpful to you. What, exactly, are you looking for? Perhaps it’s your own attitude that needs some rethinking here? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/23 "2018-02-11T21:37:58Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Perhaps it’s your own attitude that needs some rethinking here? Your first response was to tell me my premise was wrong. Unhelpful when you don’t explain why. The second one is to tell me I’m wrong and you’ll respond later. Honestly, both responses are unhelpful. You could have waited until you had that third response ready. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/24 "2018-02-11T21:39:44Z")
There’s a pretty good article on Wikipedia entitled “Big Bang” that lays the whole thing out simply enough. Here’s a quote: “The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distance between two comoving points. In other words, the Big Bang is not an explosion in space, but rather an expansion of space.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/25 "2018-02-11T21:42:25Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Your first response was to tell me my premise was wrong. Unhelpful when you don’t explain why. The second one is to tell me I’m wrong and you’ll respond later. > > Honestly, both responses are unhelpful. You could have waited until you had that third response ready. Well, then, I apologize for taking the time to try to give you a helpful explanatory response, but not doing it quite on a schedule that suited you. Again, where exactly was I mocking or insulting, please? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/26 "2018-02-11T21:44:51Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So let’s back off the “you’re wrong” and start providing actual, productive answers, eh? > [@Chimera](#): > > You know, this is why I’ve struggled with the idea of asking this on this board. Because instead of being gentle and informative, we have people like you on this board who fall back to telling people they’re wrong and coming all too close to being insulting, mocking and completely less than helpful. > > Do better. **Moderator Note** **Chimera** , as far as I can see the responses you have received so far have been polite and informative. I think you need to be less defensive and less snarky if you are going to ask questions here. Dial it way back. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/27 "2018-02-11T21:59:00Z")
Yes, if a question contains an inherent misconception, then it is impossible to answer the question without first correcting the misconception. Which **Riemann** did. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/28 "2018-02-11T22:02:06Z")
Here’s a good simple article about the concept of the “edge of the universe”: > **[Where's the Edge of the Universe?](https://www.space.com/33005-where-is-the-universes-edge-op-ed.html)** > > The universe is expanding, but what's it expanding into? Nothing! Astrophysicist Paul Sutter explains this baffling concept, plus how the universe can expand but not have an edge. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/29 "2018-02-11T22:04:00Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > There is no edge or center of the universe in any privileged frame of reference. There is the cosmological (or comoving) horizon which defines the limits of the observable universe for us on Earth, but somewhere out there could be an intelligent observer for whom our planet and sun are at the limit of their obsevable universe, approximately 46.5 Bly away in comoving distance (as the interstellar crow flies, so to speak). They wouldn’t literally see our solar system because they’d be seeing light from over 13 Byr ago, but they could see the precursor galaxies forming to generate the heavier elements that would one day make up our galaxy and planetary system. Ok, this makes sense and tells me where my premise is wrong. Are there models where there is a larger, older “Universe” and our singularity/Universe is merely a new manifestation spreading out into that existing universe? I know there’s a couple of scifi universes where they posit this. I’m blanking on some of them but I know the Well of Souls series is essentially like this, in that when they destroy the universe to reboot it, there are remnants of an older universe still around. I also recall reading something last year where they posited something like this, where if a new universe were to spring into existence near us, we wouldn’t detect it until it hit us, potentially rewriting our local laws of physics and the like. I’m not suggesting that is the way it works, just asking about the idea and if that’s just science fiction or some actual theory somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/30 "2018-02-11T22:06:19Z")
Reimann, I still don’t like the idea of being told I’m wrong twice without any actual answer\*, but thank you for the one you did provide. Yes, it does help. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/31 "2018-02-11T22:14:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Chimera** : > > Are there models where there is a larger, older “Universe” and our singularity/Universe is merely a new manifestation spreading out into that existing universe? Eternal inflation models are something like that, but it’s more that our universe is a region which (almost) stopped expanding, relative to the background which is still expanding ludicrously quickly. It’s actually quite an elegant little model, which is unfortunately completely impossible to test experimentally or observationally. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/32 "2018-02-11T22:27:10Z")
Right, it’s kind of like those stars they find that they say appear to be older than the observable universe. You can’t really prove that they are, as the means you’re using to determine that could be flawed and the star properties you’re using to determine that could be compromised by other things in its past. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/33 "2018-02-11T22:29:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Reimann, > > I still don’t like the idea of being told I’m wrong twice without any actual answer\*, but thank you for the one you did provide. Yes, it does help. If you’re incapable of taking a step back and discerning how inappropriate your reactions have been here, all I can suggest is that you come back and reread the thread tomorrow with a fresh eye. In the meantime, I suggest we return to the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/34 "2018-02-11T22:30:47Z")
> [@Napier](#): > > Here’s a good simple article about the concept of the “edge of the universe”: > [Where's the Edge of the Universe? | Space](https://www.space.com/33005-where-is-the-universes-edge-op-ed.html) Thanks. More ¯\_(ツ)\_/¯, but still informative. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/35 "2018-02-11T22:36:10Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Reimann, > > I still don’t like the idea of being told I’m wrong twice without any actual answer\*, **Moderator Note** As I said, your responses here were inappropriate. Let’s drop any further discussion of the matter. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/36 "2018-02-11T22:46:29Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/37 "2018-02-11T23:15:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s actually quite an elegant little model, which is unfortunately completely impossible to test experimentally or observationally. Also, if anyone thinks the size of the solar system or the galaxy or the observable universe is humbling, they ain’t got nothing on eternal inflation. Relative to the rest of the universe, the observable universe is shrinking exponentially at a rate of perhaps 10[sup]60[/sup] per second. For me at least, this is somehow more disturbing than a truly infinite universe. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/38 "2018-02-11T23:27:14Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Also, if anyone thinks the size of the solar system or the galaxy or the observable universe is humbling, they ain’t got nothing on eternal inflation. Relative to the rest of the universe, the observable universe is shrinking exponentially at a rate of perhaps 10[sup]60[/sup] per second. For me at least, this is somehow more disturbing than a truly infinite universe. Just to make us feel a bit better, remember, that you are always the center of an infinite universe. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/39 "2018-02-11T23:28:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s the downside. As the universe expands, more and more of what is now the visible universe will pass beyond the cosmological horizon. the light leaving our planet now will never reach them. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > That is not to say that we know in any way definitively what lies beyond what we can see. It’s pretty sure that it is pretty much the same for some distance beyond the cosmological horizon, but it is possible that this happened to be a patch of the universe that inflated in a smooth and flat fashion, further out could have played out differently. Does this mean that the furthermost-away things that earth’s astronomers can observe now are becoming farther away, so that eventually future generations of astronomers will no longer be able to observe them? That seems to be implied by an ever-expanding universe, but I don’t think it’s correct. There seems to constantly be more information discovered about farther-away things. Is that just a function of us developing better quality instruments? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637/40 "2018-02-11T23:30:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Awww, I thought we were special So did Pope Paul V. And got rather upset when Galileo told him it wasn’t so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-edge-of-the-universe/808637.md?page=3)