# The Education Numbers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320 "2013-10-26T17:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/41 "2013-10-28T17:58:22Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Would they in any country? Health care can be pretty black and white- either you are healthy or you are not. Education, on the other hand, always has room for improvement. Umm, it is not simply a matter of “healthy” or “unhealthy.” Doctors don’t spend a decade in training to simply check off one or the other. Given the extreme complexity of modern medicine, I should think education were comparatively black-and-white. Poor test scores are poor test scores, no matter how far you try and apologize for them. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/42 "2013-10-28T18:00:15Z")
I’m confused… I thought this thread was about education and not the ACA/unemployment. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/43 "2013-10-28T18:12:06Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Unemployment isn’t a poll of consumer satisfaction but merely a data point, so your comparison is laughable. Ah, so how things are perceived is more important than what’s actually true? A poll is more than just “a data point”? How about these data point: we spend more than 50% more per capita on healthcare than any other country, yet have the highest infant mortality rate of any country in the West (excluding South America and the Caribbean). Since “spending lots of money for minimal return” seems to be your problem with US education, your opposition to healthcare reform seems rather inconsistent. > [@](#): > > Please try again and genuinely answer the question I posed. You could have answered it yourself with three seconds of Googling. People are mostly [quite dissatisfied](http://www.gallup.com/poll/1612/education.aspx) with the US education system. You might also have discovered that 26% of Americans believed [healthcare was the biggest problem facing the US](http://www.gallup.com/poll/122885/Economy-Healthcare-Top-Important-Problem-List.aspx) (second only to the economy generally) prior to the passage of the ACA. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/44 "2013-10-28T18:13:17Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m confused… I thought this thread was about education and not the ACA/unemployment. 😕 Lack of the first can certainly lead to lengthy digressions about the second. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/45 "2013-10-28T18:20:16Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > We spend vastly more than any other nation No [we don’t.](http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2010+wbapi_data_value&sort=asc) Spending is at or around 5% GDP in most of the industrialized world, with Asian countries spending a little less and Scandanavian ones a little more. > [@JohnT](#): > > I’m confused… I thought this thread was about education and not the ACA/unemployment. Seriously. I realize its a lost cause, but I wish Dopers would at least try to stick to the topic at hand instead of mindlessly chasing after every piece of chum thrown into the water. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/46 "2013-10-28T18:38:04Z")
I won’t derail the thread, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/47 "2013-10-28T18:42:56Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Has anybody tried, instead of inflating dead-weight administrators salaries, paying students to go to school, or their parents to take them? Various types of welfare payments are tied to school attendance. \*Going \*to school and being _engaged_ while there are two entirely different animals. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/48 "2013-10-28T18:42:56Z")
We need to spend more on education, we spend a fraction of the importance education has in our society ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/49 "2013-10-28T18:52:34Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I won’t derail the thread, my apologies. I appreciate it. But back to the topic, your impression seems to have been that we were spending “vastly more” on education then other countries to get moderate results. Given that we in fact spend approximately an average amount compared to other industrialized countries, and get approximately average (and improving!) test scores, does that change your opinion? Again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t seek to do better, but the idea that US education is somehow fundamentally flawed, in crisis, etc. seem rather pernicious to me. It delivers a decent, if rather middle-of-the-road, bang for our educational dollars. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/50 "2013-10-28T21:04:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Various types of welfare payments are tied to school attendance. \*Going \*to school and being _engaged_ while there are two entirely different animals. Pay them to get good grades then. But to be clear, I’m not talking about creating a monetary incentive to entice people to go to school or take it seriously or get good grades or whatever. I’m talking about the fact that poor people do worse in school – apparently _because_ they’re poor – so if we can eliminate or drastically reduce poverty, our educational success rate will skyrocket simply as a byproduct. Of course, that might take a generation or two, and sound-bite-of-the-week politicians who got their jobs through a bi-annual popularity contest have no time for that. So they’re probably just going to continue pissing into the wind and claiming random noise in the signal as successes. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/51 "2013-10-28T22:15:42Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I appreciate it. > > But back to the topic, your impression seems to have been that we were spending “vastly more” on education then other countries to get moderate results. Given that we in fact spend approximately an average amount compared to other industrialized countries, and get approximately average (and improving!) test scores, does that change your opinion? > > Again, I’m not saying we shouldn’t seek to do better, but the idea that US education is somehow fundamentally flawed, in crisis, etc. seem rather pernicious to me. It delivers a decent, if rather middle-of-the-road, bang for our educational dollars. Fair enough. I know _per student_ we spend significantly more in dollars than other nations, and I believe we aren’t getting our bang for the buck. The responsibility of course is shared by many–apathetic parents, “teaching to the test”, and the practice of swapping bad teachers around to different schools rather than simply letting them go. The fix isn’t easy; it involves as much a change in our culture as in our education system. But I see it as getting worse, and would rather address it sooner than to see an entire generation lost in an increasingly competitive global economy. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/52 "2013-10-28T22:18:06Z")
For the record, I’m an advocate of expanding charter schools and a voucher system where parents can shop around for the best school available to their child. If we want a meritocracy, that is the way to achieve it. While at the same time providing competition and accountability to poorly performing schools. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/53 "2013-10-28T22:20:49Z")
You know that the voucher system is basically just a handout to the middle class and sponsoring churches, right? Low-income families have neither the time nor the inclination to shop around for schools (not that I approve of their lack of engagement). ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/54 "2013-10-28T23:33:36Z")
Let’s NOT expand vouchers, they are horribly regressive towards the lower class and serve only to hurt public education at a time when it is vulnerable ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/55 "2013-10-28T23:41:55Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > For the record, I’m an advocate of expanding charter schools and a voucher system where parents can shop around for the best school available to their child. If we want a meritocracy, that is the way to achieve it. While at the same time providing competition and accountability to poorly performing schools. But do we want a meritocracy in public education? That implies that the best students can get a great education while the poor ones get left behind even more than they already do. This is a major philosophical point of contention. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/56 "2013-10-29T00:13:19Z")
The alternative is for poor students to hold the brightest ones back. We should certainly have some sort of “streaming” system. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/57 "2013-10-29T00:42:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You could have answered it yourself with three seconds of Googling. People are mostly [quite dissatisfied](http://www.gallup.com/poll/1612/education.aspx) with the US education system. And yet they are mostly (67%) Satisfied or Very Satisfied with the quality of education their oldest child is receiving. Why the disparity? Almost certainly a media influence: they know from personal experience that the schools are doing well, but suspect from alarmist and misleading media reports that education in general sucks in our country. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/58 "2013-10-29T00:49:36Z")
Maybe it’s just elementary schools that suck. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/59 "2013-10-29T01:11:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Maybe it’s just elementary schools that suck. 😉 That’s gotta be it! ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320/60 "2013-10-29T01:26:26Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > So you take a poor kid and make it impossible to get an education at all. > That is one of the most assholish and mind numbingly fucked up idea I’ve ever heard. even under our current system, people can get educated for free. Any person with access to youtube has more education than he can possibly ever have time for. Any person with a kindle can have tons of great books. throw in a cheap mp3 player and iTunes and you have even more. Why do we think that without a public school, poor kids would go uneducated? the only person that goes uneducated is the person that chooses to go uneducated. and no public school is going to help the person who just doesn’t want to learn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-numbers/672320.md?page=4)