# The education situation in Alabama and Mississippi… **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647 "2012-03-13T14:11:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/41 "2012-03-15T10:33:49Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If people make irrational choices in their private lives they are harmed and will eventually learn to make more rational decisions. Do you really think so? It seems to me that people who are prone to irrational choices are highly likely to assess the results of those choices irrationally, leading to further irrational choices. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/42 "2012-03-15T14:44:41Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It’s easy for YOU, as one of Santorum’s Aryans, to not worry about this, Hehe. He’s one of them thar blue-eyed, blond-haired Asians? ---
**Author:** ![Yakuza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/bbce88/32.png) [@Yakuza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yakuza)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/43 "2012-03-15T16:57:00Z")
I agree that Alabama and Mississippi are racists, but I also don’t believe in evolution. I’m not a Christian, I just believe in God, Heaven, and Hell. There is no proof of evolution just like there is no proof of the garden of Eden. Nobidy knows what happned in the beginning. Alabama and Mississipi may be right about not believing in evolution, but they are wrong 2 claim that life started with Adam and Eve because this discriminates against other religions ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/44 "2012-03-15T17:01:58Z")
Evolution has nothing to do with “what happened in the beginning”. It covers what’s been happening since then. You are talking about abiogenesis, which is something completely different. It’s like saying you don’t believe in gravity because there is no proof for string theory. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/45 "2012-03-15T17:05:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How many black people were on _Father Knows Best_? How many women following careers instead of being homemakers? How many homosexuals? > > By and large, the fifties are only idealized by straight white men. Wanting America to look more like that ideal is not very appealing to anyone who is not a member of that demographic. Just to make it clear, it is also not very appealing to many of us who _are_ members of that demographic. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/46 "2012-03-15T17:07:09Z")
> [@Yakuza](#): > > I agree that Alabama and Mississippi are racists, but I also don’t believe in evolution. I’m not a Christian, I just believe in God, Heaven, and Hell. There is no proof of evolution just like there is no proof of the garden of Eden. Nobidy knows what happned in the beginning. Alabama and Mississipi may be right about not believing in evolution, but they are wrong 2 claim that life started with Adam and Eve because this discriminates against other religions I think a few of my brain-wrinkles smoothed out while I read this. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/47 "2012-03-15T17:13:54Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What I was specifically referencing was the idea that Santorum is not just wrong but crazy and evil. Here is a man with a long and distinguished history of government service who has lived an honorable and ethical life yet there are some who honestly seem to believe that he is a crazed theocrat who seeks to overturn the constitution. Such a position is as rational as Obama being a Muslim. > The irrationality of voters has clear policy implications. Since voters have no incentive to be rational or knowledgable in their votes, and irrational and uniformed voters have to be pursued by politicians. Polticians have to create policies that cater to the irrational and uniformed. We could try to better educate the electorate but with the internet information is easier to obtain than ever before and most people are just not interested. We could try to restrict who votes but the rascist legacy of voter testing makes this impossible. > What we need to do is to limit the power of the government so that the irrationality does the least bit of harm. If people make irrational choices in their private lives they are harmed and will eventually learn to make more rational decisions. If people vote irrationally they will never know it because the feedback mechanisms are so poor and the issues are so complex. For example some people who voted for Obama might now be sorry because gas prices are going up and they now have to pay more for gasoline. However the price of gas is set by hundreds of different factors all around the world. There is literally no way of knowing how much Obama has affected the price of gas. > Therefore the more freedom we give to individuals to make their own choices the better the decisions will be and the more choices we let the government make, the more irrationality we will have. What about the irrationality, or just plain greed and selfishness, of corporations and other powerful interests? They can act in ways that will benefit themselves while hurting large numbers of others. What feedback will limit them? We need a government that will keep them in check. That government may not be perfect, but at least it is answerable to the people to a greater extent than those other interests. Libertarians worry about the power of government, but seem unconcerned about the power of other institutions that would be unleashed by the weakening of government. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/48 "2012-03-15T17:20:04Z")
> [@WotNot](#): > > Do you really think so? It seems to me that people who are prone to irrational choices are highly likely to assess the results of those choices irrationally, leading to further irrational choices. It all depends on the feedback mechanism and the reinforcement schedule. If you hook up one lever to a pellet dispenser and another to a battery you can teach a mouse which lever to push in minutes. Because in life so much of bad consequences happen well after the irrational act it can take a long time for people to learn, but over time they do. In politics the laws are not passed until a year after the election and the consequences of the law may not appear to years after that. Plus each politician votes of such a variety of laws that voting rationally is almost an impossible notion. I am glad we had so many volunteers to show irrationality is not confined to Alabama and Mississippi. Since Santorum served in Congress for seventeen years I am sure all of you can point to numerous bills he sponsored targeting gays and minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/49 "2012-03-15T17:27:51Z")
> [@Yakuza](#): > > I agree that Alabama and Mississippi are racists, but I also don’t believe in evolution. I’m not a Christian, I just believe in God, Heaven, and Hell. There is no proof of evolution just like there is no proof of the garden of Eden. Nobidy knows what happned in the beginning. Alabama and Mississipi may be right about not believing in evolution, but they are wrong 2 claim that life started with Adam and Eve because this discriminates against other religions There is plenty of proof for evolution. You just haven’t learned it. You might be thinking about the origin of life, that’s different from evolution. Life arising from non-life isn’t fully understood, but the scientific mass of evidence points very, very, very strongly against Adam and Eve. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/50 "2012-03-15T17:28:06Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > What about the irrationality, or just plain greed and selfishness, of corporations and other powerful interests? They can act in ways that will benefit themselves while hurting large numbers of others. What feedback will limit them? We need a government that will keep them in check. That government may not be perfect, but at least it is answerable to the people to a greater extent than those other interests. > > Libertarians worry about the power of government, but seem unconcerned about the power of other institutions that would be unleashed by the weakening of government. If a corporation harms me with a lousy product, I can buy a different product. If they treat me poorly as a worker I can quit. They have no power to compel me to do anything I do not want to do. If the people decide to stop patronizing a business it will be out of business. Compare the Fortune 500 from forty years ago to the one today. Many of those rich and powerful companies no longer exist. If I do not like what the government is doing I can move to a different country, completely upending my life. The government can take my money and my liberty for any reason it wants to. If I object I had better hope enough of my fellow citizens agree with me or I am SOL. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/51 "2012-03-15T17:38:21Z")
If a corporation harms you by poisoning your air or water, or ruining your land, you can certainly buy a different product, but there’s no guarantee that others will stop buying from them, particularly if those others live hundreds or thousands of miles away. Government can pass and enforce laws to put limits on pollution. I’ll always maintain that a popularly elected government that has checks, balances, and independent branches is, while not perfect, a better bet than unchecked corporations (or warlords, or biker gangs, or whatever). One thing you have to realize is that, in a vacuum of governance, one of those other unchecked powers will eventually become a de facto government. One which is not in any way planned or designed to give a say to you or I. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/52 "2012-03-15T17:43:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If a corporation harms me with a lousy product, I can buy a different product. Unless the bad product has killed you, of course, like in that libertarian wonderland of China. Oh, if there is a big enough stink the government even executes the exec who killed you, but that doesn’t seem to stop them or help you. We might also think about our own 19th century libertarian wonderland know for pure food and drugs. Fact is, ripping off and even poisoning your customers can be an excellent business model, especially since when you do go out of business you just set up elsewhere. > [@](#): > > If they treat me poorly as a worker I can quit. Assuming you can get a job elsewhere when you quit, and assuming that the jobs open to you are any better. Triangle fire, anyone? Or was that caused by government interference? > [@](#): > > They have no power to compel me to do anything I do not want to do. If the people decide to stop patronizing a business it will be out of business. Compare the Fortune 500 from forty years ago to the one today. Many of those rich and powerful companies no longer exist. How many of them went out of business because of ripping off their customers? There are plenty of other reasons for businesses to close, so this statement means absolutely nothing. And, like I said, if your business model is to rip off your customer, going out of business from time to time is expected and hardly the end of the world. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/53 "2012-03-15T17:49:13Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > If a corporation harms you by poisoning your air or water, or ruining your land, you can certainly buy a different product, but there’s no guarantee that others will stop buying from them, particularly if those others live hundreds or thousands of miles away. Government can pass and enforce laws to put limits on pollution. > > I’ll always maintain that a popularly elected government that has checks, balances, and independent branches is, while not perfect, a better bet than unchecked corporations (or warlords, or biker gangs, or whatever). > > One thing you have to realize is that, in a vacuum of governance, one of those other unchecked powers will eventually become a de facto government. One which is not in any way planned or designed to give a say to you or I. Agreed, that is why government is a necessary evil and I am not a libertarian. Government exists to keep citizens from harming each other or foreigners from harming citizens. However, the poor feedback mechanisms and the information problem mean that government is a very crude instrument. Thus we should only rely on government when all available alternatives have failed. The incentives for politicians are to promise solutions to every problem and thus grow government ever larger, but we need to remember in every government solution the guys Ms Pelosi interviewed get to have a vote too. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/54 "2012-03-15T18:08:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Unless the bad product has killed you, of course, like in that libertarian wonderland of China. Well you have to understand that China’s government is too small and feeble even for a radical like me. If China had a government that was large and powerful enough to contend with its corporations than obviously no bad things could happen. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/55 "2012-03-15T18:10:41Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Hehe. He’s one of them thar blue-eyed, blond-haired Asians? I’m not sure having the screen name of an ancient Chinese tyrant makes one Asian, but in any case I’m obviously referring to “straight males,” the Aryans of the putative Rick Santorum reich. ---
**Author:** ![just\_some\_guy5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@just\_some\_guy5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/just_some_guy5)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/56 "2012-03-15T18:10:52Z")
I imagine I’ll catch flack for this but my experience has been that this sort of ignorance manifests itself to varying degrees in both parties. I’ve got relatives in Arkansas and Louisiana that legitimately believe Obama was born in Kenya (not that they’d consider voting for him anyway). However, I’ve also got relatives in Michigan and Ohio who genuinely believe that all businesses are inherently evil, and would sooner vote for a racist, homicidal maniac (that supports big labor) over any candidate representing the GOP. Ignorance is ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/57 "2012-03-15T19:09:03Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I’m not sure having the screen name of an ancient Chinese tyrant makes one Asian, but in any case I’m obviously referring to “straight males,” the Aryans of the putative Rick Santorum reich. **Qin** is apparently the son of Korean immigrants, but the rest of your description of a Santorum presidency is a tad hyperbolic. Just as Obama never had the power to take guns out of our hands, Santorum as POTUS won’t be able to round up undesirables and cattle train them anywhere. It’ll be a few years before we, as a society, get to the point where such an attempt wouldn’t be caught on camera, end up online in a matter of hours, and shock/outrage the entire country. Even in the South, acceptance of homosexuality among the younger set is almost common. Acceptance of homosexual marriage is less common, but it’s also getting there among younger Southerners. Of course, I still believe Santorum would do whatever he can to lead the country in that direction, even if he doesn’t consciously characterize his beliefs and actions in that way. As for the willful ignorance of Southerners, it definitely exists. I saw it on full display while growing up in Arkansas and currently while living in Texas. Facts really don’t matter. It’s the “Truth” that matters, even if the “Truth” contradicts observable and objective fact. Best I can say is that we’re not all like that and some of us do our best to fight those stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/58 "2012-03-15T19:53:52Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If I do not like what the government is doing I can move to a different country, completely upending my life. The government can take my money and my liberty for any reason it wants to. As you said, you can move anywhere you like. There’s even a few places with no government to speak of, which is pretty much your idea of paradise, eh? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/59 "2012-03-15T20:07:09Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > As you said, you can move anywhere you like. There’s even a few places with no government to speak of, which is pretty much your idea of paradise, eh? Cleveland is no one’s idea of paradise. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647/60 "2012-03-15T20:11:45Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Agreed, that is why government is a necessary evil and I am not a libertarian. Government exists to keep citizens from harming each other or foreigners from harming citizens. However, the poor feedback mechanisms and the information problem mean that government is a very crude instrument. Thus we should only rely on government when all available alternatives have failed. > The incentives for politicians are to promise solutions to every problem and thus grow government ever larger, but we need to remember in every government solution the guys Ms Pelosi interviewed get to have a vote too. And they _should_ get to have a vote. And the rest of us, if for no reason other than our own well-being, should be willing to sacrifice whatever is needed to bring them up to a decent level of education and understanding. This is what the anti-tax “don’t give my money to other people” folks don’t seem to get. Those other people also get to vote, and it’s in everybody’s interest that they have the education and understanding to cast their vote in a way that is at properly informed. Of course, “properly informed” doesn’t automatically mean that they’ll always agree with me, or you. We obviously shouldn’t demand that. It just means that they’ll have a better grasp of the facts then they do now and will be able to vote on their own values based on facts rather than fiction (at least to a greater extent than they do now). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-situation-in-alabama-and-mississippi/615647.md?page=4)