# The Education System **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253 "2003-08-01T00:17:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![\_O\_o\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_O\_o\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_O_o_1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/61 "2003-08-02T01:54:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Ahah! Now we have the root of the problem. You are using definitions only you know to the words everyone else is using. \*\* Naw, just “lib”. I promise. Do you usually exploit insignificant instances to scapegoat personal ineptitude… or just this time? Wow, I must have really… _hurt your feelings._ You’re gettin’ outta hand, killer. > [@](#): > > \*\*Out of idle curiosity (especially given your erroneous comments earlier on the issues of language), what exactly is _your_ background in Linguistics? \*\* I ordered a degree from the television. What quantifiable scale are you looking for here? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/62 "2003-08-02T02:04:22Z")
Fact. Here’s a series of simple queries for you: [ul][li]At what stage did you leave the “educational system?”[/li][li]Did you receive a degree from a postsecondary institution?[/li][li]Did you study any Linguistics courses there?[/li][li]If so, what were those courses?[/li][li]If not, what have you read on the subject?[/li]Why should the rest of us go along with your assertions absent your posting your qualifications/credentials, especially since you refuse to post any other proof of your assertions?[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![\_O\_o\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_O\_o\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_O_o_1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/63 "2003-08-02T02:16:53Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Monty \* \*\*Fact. Here’s a series of simple queries for you: [ul][li]At what stage did you leave the “educational system?”[/li][/quote] \*\* Sophmore year of college. [quote] \*\*[li]Did you receive a degree from a postsecondary institution?[/li][/quote] \*\* No. [quote] \*\*[li]Did you study any Linguistics courses there?[/li][/quote] \*\* Yes. [quote] \*\*[li]If so, what were those courses?[/li][/quote] \*\* 1. Very basic stuff. [quote] \*\*[li]If not, what have you read on the subject?[/li][/quote] \*\* Pretty much nothing of any significance. A certain understanding of linguistics can be just observed via discussion itself. [quote] \*\*[li]Why should the rest of us go along with your assertions absent your posting your qualifications/credentials, especially since you refuse to post any other proof of your assertions?[/ul] \*\*[/li][/QUOTE] What assertions? _Linguistics is quite a cunundrum sometimes?_ Oh my. Gettin’ crazy in here… Why does logic require crudentials? If I said 2+2=4, would you then ask how extensive my mathmatics background is? What is the big issue with avoiding actual substantive discussion here? I’d also like to ask what these questions have to do with my use of the phrase “linguistics is cuite a cunundrum sometimes”? I’m in no way an expert in linguistics. How was what I suggested an indication that I thought I was? It was a very basic statement. Jupiter is a planet within out solar system. Shall I give you my astonomy credentials now? Wit has been mastered here. Sadly, substantive discussion is harder to locate. ---
**Author:** ![\_O\_o\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/9d8465/32.png) [@\_O\_o\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_O_o_1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/64 "2003-08-02T02:30:07Z")
Before my first post - I put this in my profile: \*I am waiting for the personal accessments of myself by others to explain away my content. Waiting…\* I suppose the wait is over. So ‘textbook’… lol :wally ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/65 "2003-08-02T02:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > ## Did you study any Linguistics courses there? > > ## Yes. quote: > > ## If so, what were those courses? > > 1. Very basic stuff. > (O\_o)\*\*: Psssst! Linguistics is not a 101 course… I strongly agree with **(O\_o)** on his premise. He has convinced me that he has remained ignorant. Certainly one has to take into consideration that this example is andecdotal, but I think that he has presented a strong argument to support his contention. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/66 "2003-08-02T02:48:48Z")
Actually, I tend to agree with some of what **(O\_o)** has said. He _is_ ignorant. I realize that this example is anecdotal, but the evidence is so strong as to merit mention. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/67 "2003-08-02T03:10:54Z")
(O\_o): You are still refusing to provide proof that the assertions you made in your OP have any validity to them. One assertion, which I have repeatedly indicated to you, is one that is a claim to a particular portion of those who teach having a particular quality. I have requested that you show some evidence for that. You have refused to do so. Logic itself doesn’t require credentials. You, on the other hand, are not Logic. You are spouting and expecting your reader to accept what you say as though it’s Truth From On High[sup]TM[/sup]. That particular method usually works only after one has established one’s credentials in that field. As you have neither credentials in Education nor Linguistics–and your pronouncements about both are off the mark–you have proven that you know not of what you speak. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2003, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/68 "2003-08-02T20:34:16Z")
The only thing I could add to your description of school is that it is designed to psychologically condition people to be subservient to authority. And the authority isn’t that bright. a proposed escape: [http://presidentjackson.no-ip.org/knavelacademy](http://presidentjackson.no-ip.org/knavelacademy) Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/69 "2003-08-03T05:15:56Z")
Interestingly, there is a wave of people leaving their “real life” jobs to enter the teaching field. A slew of MAT programs have been developed to specifically address their needs. I know a number of people who have done this, and I know they are not aberrant cases. As this continues, you will find increasing numbers of people in front of schoolchildren with significant experience in the “real world” you describe. [I apologize to Fisher Queen and all other teachers for buying into the silly “real life/real world” concept to report this]. I think that one thing you have failed to learn, my friend, is critical thinking. I don’t know whether to blame the school system or to blame this “life” education you claim is teaching you so much more. What you have told us is that you spent a maximum of four semester’s worth of time at a single college or university. And from this experience, you claim to know how the entire postsecondary system works? Are you thinking critically and clearly? Are you aware that there are over 3000 postsecondary institutions in the U.S.? [To pick at just one of your incredible claims, do you know how few of them sell their own textbooks?] The tendency to take one’s own specific situation and apply it to the entire rest of the world with a broad, thick, tar-covered brush is perfectly normal in young people. However, as we grow older, ours mind are capable of relative thinking. But, apparently, it is something that must be taught or learned. It’s exactly the sort of thing that college tries to pound into us. Not everyone learns it–there is evidence of that all over the boards and everywhere else you look. I fear your post is one more incidence. I would be the first to agree with you that there are problems in the K-12 system, and could enthusiastically talk about shortcomings in my area of expertise, the postsecondary system. However, I don’t see how any of us can discuss these problems seriously with someone who makes ridiculous, overwrought, indefensible charges, and who speaks in such absolutes. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/70 "2003-08-03T13:10:50Z")
Cranky: None of what the OP’s posting is true. See my Pit thread addressed to it. Also see the other Pit thread the OP started, especially mine & very especially Zoe’s comments therein. ---
**Author:** ![Clu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@Clu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clu)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/71 "2003-08-03T15:00:55Z")
Hmmm. I’m not sure if I want to take this post seriously as that would give it legitimacy. I would like to add that the OP has a minor point that I agree with, but it’s implicit & definitely not emphasized. That point is certain ppl. might be better suited to certain professions than others, but the educational system forces them to waste a couple of years of their lives taking supplemental college courses in the process of getting a degree. One might suggest that there could be some sort of apprenticeship that would negate this, but I’m not suggesting this, so please don’t debate it. I think it’s funny that the OP gave the impression of talking down to some of the contributors here, who made an honest effort to help him out. HE chose to change the course of this thread from his 1st response to **Whack-a-Mole** , in which he agreed w/ most of the comments, to a bickering contest which he could have EASILY stayed away from. Considering that other responses from the OP are unnecessarily verbose… > [@](#): > > Do you usually exploit insignificant instances to scapegoat personal ineptitude… or just this time? It seems clear that the OP is more concerned w/ sounding smart than responding wisely. re: the OP’s use of liberal as an insult… people like this convince me that I’m on the right side. I need to check out this pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/72 "2003-08-04T13:47:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FisherQueen \* > \*\*Since you aren’t my student and don’t report to my school board, I feel safe in saying: > > Screw you, punk. > > You post in beautiful English that my experience is useless. You spit on the years I spent in college and graduate school studying how to best teach your ungrateful little ass to post so clearly. > > You think I don’t live in the ‘real world?’ Kindergarteners believe that their teachers live at the school; first graders are surprised to see their teachers at the grocery store. High school students know that their teachers go home at 4:00 (or 5, or 6) to lives a lot like theirs. I pay my bills, scrape to get by, have fun, have relationships, have trouble and trauma- what on earth do you want? > > What do you think the real world is? My life doesn’t count unless I’ve-- what? What experiences do you think are enough for me to be qualified to teach you? What about all the time I spent on the factory assembly line paying for that education you think is so irrelevant? Let me tell you, the folks working there felt the same way as you do about education- that it’s irrelevant, pointless, and that theirs was the ‘real world,’ standing in a grey warehouse putting the lids on ashtrays for years on end. How about the classes I had to take to learn to defend myself from the students who may try to kill me any day I step into my classroom? Is that real enough for you? What about the times I’ve been scared to walk home at night because I thought that might be one of the students I flunked standing in front of my apartment? What about the times it was? > > You think most of your teachers had easy lives just because they had the grace not to tell their students about their problems? All of them had problems- you just had a few teachers who told their students about them. The whole world is the real world, kid, and all of it is hard. Your teachers didn’t get an easier trip because of their job. Do you have any idea what the suicide rate is among teachers? Not quite as bad as cops and dentists, but it’s right up there. Did you know how many teachers are driven insane- no, literally insane- by the job? Do you know how many quit before they’re more than a few years into it, because the ‘real world’ is so much easier? > > And it isn’t enough that I work and struggle every day and most nights to get you a good education, when the state politicians are making new laws that primarily exist to get them elected but which I then have to incorporate into an already-difficult job. No, but if I manage to get home before 6, I can turn on the news and listen to the media telling the world that it’s my fault that teenagers are taking drugs, beating up old ladies, robbing convenience stores, raping kittens, whatever other stupidity they’re doing that keeps them from even waking up for my class. The downfall of Western Civilization is all right on my head, people tell me, and make sure you get those papers graded on time while you’re keeping kids off drugs, teaching them high moral standards while respecting their individual beliefs, and making them memorize the Constitution so they don’t look ignorant on standardized tests. > > And the only reward I get, usually, is punks like you telling me that teachers don’t know anything at all about the ‘real world’ and that their experiences are somehow more ‘real’ than mine are. How you expected me to teach you without spending time in school with you, or why I’m isolated for teaching school while you are not isolated for attending it, are questions which you clearly have answered to your own satisfaction. \*\* You are a credit to our profession, FisherQueen. I applaud you. ---
**Author:** ![dal\_timgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@dal\_timgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dal_timgar)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/73 "2003-08-04T21:08:41Z")
If you do a search on: “the student as nigger” you will find interesting complaints about the educational system from 1969. It has mostly gone down hill since then. Children go to school so people who claim to be educators can make a living off them. Some of these people want to “mold minds” in their image. Are we producing people with brain damage. Dal Timgar ---
**Author:** ![moejuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@moejuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejuck)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/74 "2003-08-05T01:39:32Z")
dal\_timgar, I don’t know what you are attempting to say here, but it seems that you are indirectly accusing teachers of brainwashing of some sort. If not, please clarify your post for me if you don’t mind. A simple question for O\_o: What are your suggestions to improve the system? Also, do you have a response to FisherQueen’s post? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/75 "2003-08-05T03:45:30Z")
moejuck: Given that he’s not telling us the truth in his OP, I don’t think he has a clue as to either what the purported problem or a possible solution would be. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/76 "2003-08-05T20:23:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by moejuck \* > \*\*dal\_timgar, > > I don’t know what you are attempting to say here, but it seems that you are indirectly accusing teachers of brainwashing of some sort. If not, please clarify your post for me if you don’t mind. > \*\* I graduated from high school in 1969, and I remember the essay dal\_timgar was referring to. It made the case that students were oppressed. Well, if we were, the teachers did a bad job of it. The OP would be laughable, except for the fact that this schools are awful crap provides ammunition for those who think paying taxes in support of schools is a waste of money. Trashing salaries and working conditions hurts the quality of the teacher population - not everyone is as dedicated as Fisher\_Queen obviously is. I’d be interested in seeing statistics showing that teachers with experience are better by any measure than those who went right from school to teaching. My anecdotal evidence on this is mixed. I suppose O\_o would support a rise in teacher’s salaries to encourage experienced teachers? I’m not and never have been a teacher - but I did get a damned fine education in a “factory” school (my graduating class was 1500). ---
**Author:** ![Quasimodal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/57b2e6/32.png) [@Quasimodal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quasimodal)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/77 "2003-08-06T10:46:22Z")
> [@](#): > > This looks like a board of educated fools 1. Just because people disagree with you does not make them educated fools. I see valid points being raised, and you assume any disagreement with your original post equals idiocy with little reason to dignify their responses with an answer that respects their intelligent observations. 2. If this is a board of educated fools, why have you posted here no less then 35 times? Do you enjoy being a fool as well? Are you trying to bless all of the SDMB fools with your infallible logic and conclusions? Quit being a jerk. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253/78 "2003-08-06T12:24:27Z")
> [@](#): > > This looks like a board of educated fools I resent this very deeply. I am **not** educated. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-education-system/192253.md?page=3)