# The Effects of the Arab Spring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913 "2011-09-11T04:11:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/41 "2011-09-13T03:40:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I did not think you were challenging any staff posts; I just figured you missed the point of Dick’s actual intentions. gotcha. The moderator quotes threw me. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/42 "2011-09-13T04:26:14Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is amusing that this would not be a very convincing argument with any other border for the manner of the incident. But this is now a distraction from the subject. This very attitude of “we’re not responsible for anything - we’re just victims” you’re displaying is exactly what’s held the Arab world back all these years. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/43 "2011-09-13T04:40:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > “Organ harvesters”? Seriously? > [@tomndebb](#): > > The more pertinent link is [this one](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs), (which prompted an acrimonius thread when it appeared) Not commenting on the moderation or trying to raise this hijack, but I’ll provide a TLDR for those who may be confused: [the thread it directly spawned was this one.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=544691&highlight=organ) The facts were: the[story was actually about a decade old, and had been very well reported on, by the time the Guardian “broke” it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11917088&postcount=93). The[cases involved one hospital](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11917200&postcount=98)(in which pretty much all of the bodies of murder victims had to go due to the medical network in Israel) where the Chief Pathologist abused his position and apparently acted alone for financial gain and/or may have had an underling or two knowingly carrying out improper orders, but I’m not aware that was ever alleged let alone proven. He used both Israeli and Palestinian corpses for organ harvesting and the story was essentially broken (a decade ago) because of harvesting he’d performed on an IDF soldier. He was eventually punished but not as quickly or as severely as many would have hoped. /TLDR ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/44 "2011-09-13T05:45:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In an ideal world, Egypt doesn’t let terrorists cross into Israel from Egypt. I of course agree 100% and I’m not saying Israel should do anything more than the apology already sent - there’s not really anything more to do, unfortunately. I’m also not advocating burning any embassies ever. An embassy is a key element in not being in war with people you hate and as such all the more important for Egypt. But is it really so that this is serious stuff because the regime changes? I thought it is serious stuff because a country kills five soldiers of another country? I think that should always be serious stuff. If iot wasn’t serious stuff in Mubarak years then it’s a change for the better. By the way, IDF has shown a growing incompetence in the last years and almost none of their operations go flawless like they used to go. Considering how often these kinds of situations arise, this is a bigger threat to Israel safety than any regime change in the neighbouring countries. When Israel used to play outside the rules and the dead guys always turned out to be terrorists, I always thought that we need to give them some slack. I don’t think they care about my slacks, but I don’t see them the way I used to. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/45 "2011-09-13T07:48:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > This very attitude of “we’re not responsible for anything - we’re just victims” you’re displaying is exactly what’s held the Arab world back all these years. Could be an Israeli slogan (depending on who they’re talking to). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/46 "2011-09-13T07:55:13Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Could be an Israeli slogan (depending on who they’re talking to). That’s bullshit. A quick look at our public discourse would show you that we’re among the most self-critical people in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/47 "2011-09-13T13:14:50Z")
> [@Walther\_Ego](#): > > I of course agree 100% and I’m not saying Israel should do anything more than the apology already sent - there’s not really anything more to do, unfortunately. I’m also not advocating burning any embassies ever. An embassy is a key element in not being in war with people you hate and as such all the more important for Egypt. > > But is it really so that this is serious stuff because the regime changes? I thought it is serious stuff because a country kills five soldiers of another country? I think that should always be serious stuff. If iot wasn’t serious stuff in Mubarak years then it’s a change for the better. > > By the way, IDF has shown a growing incompetence in the last years and almost none of their operations go flawless like they used to go. Considering how often these kinds of situations arise, this is a bigger threat to Israel safety than any regime change in the neighbouring countries. When Israel used to play outside the rules and the dead guys always turned out to be terrorists, I always thought that we need to give them some slack. I don’t think they care about my slacks, but I don’t see them the way I used to. In what universe did Israeli operations always go flawlessly? In all matters military, screwing up is always a possibility, and Israel is no exception - see for cogent example the “victory disease” that followed the '67 war and lead directly to the initial disasters of the '73 war. In reality, the biggest Israeli advantage has always been, not infallibility (Israel was _never_ that), but a willingness to acknowledge and learn from mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/48 "2011-09-13T13:25:13Z")
Getting back to the OP - it is still too soon to evaluate Egypt’s revolution. The vreal question is - did the revolt merely remove the dictator and his immediate cronies, leaving the country ruled by a shadowy cabal of military leaders, or are we witnessing a true transition to democracy? Only time will tell. Stuff like an angry mob that allegedly _started out_ as a rally against the military government, but _ended up_ attacking the Israeli embassy, is not encouraging - not because it is “against the interests of Israel and the US”, but rather because using Israel as a convenient scapegoat and distraction from the "street"s’ anger against the government itself is an old, old tactic in the ME (Syria attempted a rush against the Israel border early in its own revolt, but the Syrians, alas for the government, were not buying). In short, when one sees such an attack, the natural suspicion is that the government has decided on distraction rather than reform. Assuming this is true, this is bad, not for Israel, but for the citizens of Egypt. It indicates their chances of actually getting reform are the less. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/49 "2011-09-13T14:34:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > This very attitude of “we’re not responsible for anything - we’re just victims” you’re displaying is exactly what’s held the Arab world back all these years. Where did I say the Arabs are not responsible for anything? Where did I say they are just victims? This is the standard Israeli claim. Of course it has a great deal of truth in it. But I said nothing like this. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > … > Israel and Turkey are the only functional democracies in the Middle East. … Turkey is not Middle East. In any case, it is a silly thing to raise when the USA has been funding the convenient dictatorships in the region. I can understand why, but it is a stupid thing to hold against the egyptiens and the others when you give billions to anti-democrats. > [@Magiver](#): > > they are only more free to riot. There haven’t been elections yet and the jury is a long way off on the direction the country takes. This shows of course you know nothing and are merely making prejudiced comments. The Egyptians are free to exrpess themselves for the first time in many years, and have much more freedom of expression and of associaiton. It is of course a great challenge to make this transition, maybe it will fail, but to say that there is only freedom to riot is ignorant contempt. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/50 "2011-09-13T14:39:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Getting back to the OP - it is still too soon to evaluate Egypt’s revolution. The vreal question is - did the revolt merely remove the dictator and his immediate cronies, leaving the country ruled by a shadowy cabal of military leaders, or are we witnessing a true transition to democracy? Only time will tell. > > Stuff like an angry mob that allegedly _started out_ as a rally against the military government, but _ended up_ attacking the Israeli embassy, is not encouraging - not because it is “against the interests of Israel and the US”, but rather because using Israel as a convenient scapegoat and distraction from the "street"s’ anger against the government itself is an old, old tactic in the ME (Syria attempted a rush against the Israel border early in its own revolt, but the Syrians, alas for the government, were not buying). > > In short, when one sees such an attack, the natural suspicion is that the government has decided on distraction rather than reform. Assuming this is true, this is bad, not for Israel, but for the citizens of Egypt. It indicates their chances of actually getting reform are the less. I do not think it is necessary to think of government conspiracy for this attack - and the attack was very stupid I must say. Th eEgyptians have so long been impregnated with conspriacy thinking about Israel that it is a very popular thing all by itself. Some of the conspiracy thinking is true in that the egyptian government would do one with with Israel and then lie to its population about it. The cancerous behaviours of Mubarek created this, his double language, etc Egyptian can not get over this in just a few months. What is revealing is that for these problems expected, the anti-democracy in Arab region people immediately jump on it for negative conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/51 "2011-09-13T14:57:10Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I do not think it is necessary to think of government conspiracy for this attack - and the attack was very stupid I must say. Th eEgyptians have so long been impregnated with conspriacy thinking about Israel that it is a very popular thing all by itself. Some of the conspiracy thinking is true in that the egyptian government would do one with with Israel and then lie to its population about it. The cancerous behaviours of Mubarek created this, his double language, etc Egyptian can not get over this in just a few months. > > What is revealing is that for these problems expected, the anti-democracy in Arab region people immediately jump on it for negative conclusions. I say it is a suspicion that the anti-Israeli riot was steered by the Egyptian gov’t, not of course as a certainty. It is certainly awfully convenient for them that a rally originally against them transforms into one against the Israeli embassy, and such tactics are hardly unknown in the ME - indeed, the very reason the Egyptian population is so primed for Israel-hate is at least partly because of this. Certainly Nasser, in the past, used drumming up anti-Israeli sentiment for boosting his own popularity - indeed, the run-up to the 6 day war is only explicable when viewed as basically a public relations move by him, rather than a serious attempt at provoking war (which Egypt was in no way prepared for). As for why people “jump to negative conclusions” - it is hard to see anything positive emerging from a riot which trashes an embassy, with the government either unwilling, or unable, to prevent it. At best it demonstrates continued instability and lawlessness. At worst, a government that has seemingly chosen scapegoating and distraction over reform. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/52 "2011-09-13T15:24:26Z")
Yes, it is possible the egyptian government allowed this - I do not think they needed to manufacture, but it is strange they did not prevent it. Dislike of Israel does not need government prograganda but the Mubarek regime profited from using it. But one riot is not the revolution, id iis silly to make conclusoins from one incident. The problem is more if the military will exploit this to justify emergency rule. and maybe they allowed it for this reason. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/53 "2011-09-13T15:44:27Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But of course this is tautological - you can’t free someone else, by definition. I beg your pardon? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/54 "2011-09-13T16:09:13Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes, it is possible the egyptian government allowed this - I do not think they needed to manufacture, but it is strange they did not prevent it. > > Dislike of Israel does not need government prograganda but the Mubarek regime profited from using it. > > But one riot is not the revolution, id iis silly to make conclusoins from one incident. The problem is more if the military will exploit this to justify emergency rule. and maybe they allowed it for this reason. I don’t think we disagree on this. I opened my original post by saying it is too soon to evaluate Egypt’s revolution. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/55 "2011-09-13T16:10:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I beg your pardon? In pithy form: Freedom is seized, never given. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/56 "2011-09-13T16:17:53Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In pithy form: Freedom is seized, never given. Nonsense. The Canadians are no less free than the Americans and they never had to **seize** nuttin’; they just convinced the Brits it was time to cut the cord. American slaves got emancipation without, themselves, fighting for it (though their descendants had to fight hard for other things). Etc. Of course freedom can be given. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/57 "2011-09-13T16:23:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nonsense. The Canadians are no less free than the Americans and they never had to **seize** nuttin’; they just convinced the Brits it was time to cut the cord. I never said the seizing had to be violent. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/58 "2011-09-13T16:44:36Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > In pithy form: Freedom is seized, never given. I heard that opinion delivered quite vehemently on a Palestinian talk show, and I still do not understand. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/59 "2011-09-13T16:47:07Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > The notion that more democracy=friendlier governments is incredibly stupid and serious proof of intense navel gazing. The Arabs didnt revolt so that the West would feel safer. I must say I find it more than tiresome to constantly have the Arab Spring’s worth assessed based on whether it serves Western interests or not. Nevertheless, it does appear that in Libya, at least, there will be a democratic government well-disposed to the West. And certainly an interim government well-disposed to the West. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/60 "2011-09-13T17:03:25Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I heard that opinion delivered quite vehemently on a Palestinian talk show, and I still do not understand. I thought I explained what I thought pretty well in that post the first line of which you quoted. What part of it don’t you grok ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913.md?page=4)