# The Effects of the Arab Spring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913 "2011-09-11T04:11:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/61 "2011-09-13T17:12:16Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I thought I explained what I thought pretty well in that post the first line of which you quoted. What part of it don’t you grok ? I do not understand “Seizing”. I would say that Nat Turner seized his freedom and the US Civil War gave freedom to a whole bunch of folks. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/62 "2011-09-13T17:16:25Z")
I think the confusion comes from violent vs. non-violent “seizing”. It is true that you can’t tell someone “Okay now, be free!” unless they’ve got the inherent desire/willingness to embrace freedom, along with all the chaos and uncertainty it entails. At a certain point, people have to decide that they not only opt for personal freedom, but are okay if the guy down the block has it, too. Even if he’s a douche bag. Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/63 "2011-09-13T17:34:45Z")
The problem is people jumping into the Arab Spring and declaring it an attempt for a democracy like ours is supposed to be. The middle east does not have many examples, nor much of a recent history of governments that aren’t despotic. A few generations of iron rule results in nobody with an understanding of democratic institutions. Just imagining that the people can have an impact on the government ,is a mental step most people can not relate to. The Arab Springs just results in throwing off the old. The new is undetermined and it may not be to our liking. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/64 "2011-09-13T18:22:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > A few generations of iron rule results in nobody with an understanding of democratic institutions. This meme is, perhaps, one of the more offensively absurd that comes up wrt the Middle East, perhaps second only to “all they understand is force!” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/65 "2011-09-13T18:25:24Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I do not understand “Seizing”. I would say that Nat Turner seized his freedom and the US Civil War gave freedom to a whole bunch of folks. Did it ? Nat Turner spent all of his “free” time in hiding for his life in a hole in the ground. Then he was caught, beaten, flayed, beheaded and quartered. Doesn’t sound much like freedom to me. As for the Emancipation, during the war it mostly consisted of “congratulations, you’re free. Not only that, but you also just volunteered for the Union Army ! That’s a brave boy !”. After the war, black slaves weren’t compelled to work for massah anymore… but most of them still did nonetheless, for lack of other options. They still could not vote, were still discriminated against, and once the dust of the war settled a lot of “freed” slaves simply went back to the old massah to do more or less the same job they’d been doing before because those were the only jobs white people were going to allow them to do. Instead of being forcefully quartered in the slavehouse and fed slop, they were given just enough money to rent the slavehouse, buy the slop. Yay, freedom ? It took more than the Civil War, and the Emancipation, for AAs to conceptualize that they could ever get more than this shit, to collectively decide they’d had enough of this shit, and finally to demand better than this shit. To seize their freedom, piece by piece, each step of it a laborious fight. Some will even say the fight’s not over yet, black President or not. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/66 "2011-09-13T19:11:48Z")
Perhaps we use different dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/67 "2011-09-13T19:43:27Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I do not understand “Seizing”. Here, sit down, drink this, and stare at this strobe light . . . ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/68 "2011-09-13T20:14:09Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This shows of course you know nothing and are merely making prejudiced comments. The Egyptians are free to exrpess themselves for the first time in many years, and have much more freedom of expression and of associaiton. It is of course a great challenge to make this transition, maybe it will fail, but to say that there is only freedom to riot is ignorant contempt. Oh bullshit. They tore the Israeli embassy down in a riot. The prejudice is with the Egyptians who rioted [which reflects their sentiment against Israel](http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/10776/Egypt/Politics-/Most-Egyptians-want-an-end-to-peace-treaty-with-Is.aspx). ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/69 "2011-09-13T22:01:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Oh bullshit. They tore the Israeli embassy down in a riot. The prejudice is with the Egyptians who rioted [which reflects their sentiment against Israel](http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/10776/Egypt/Politics-/Most-Egyptians-want-an-end-to-peace-treaty-with-Is.aspx). So **Ramira** specifies at least two ways in which Egyptians are clearly more free since their revolution and you retort with saying the same thing. So this leaves you with no doubts about the clarity of your opinion? I mean, now Egyptians seem to be demonstrating for every last thing that annoys them, they are free to do so, but in this case it spiraled into a riot. Further, rioters are being arrested. So now we can see just by reading maybe a single news article, that Egyptians are free to associate and demonstrate, while it is illegal to burn down embassies. Sounds like almost any free country with some hotheads in it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/70 "2011-09-13T22:17:17Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > that Egyptians are free to associate and demonstrate, while it is illegal to burn down embassies. Embassies are foreign soil. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/71 "2011-09-13T22:33:33Z")
BTW, does this mean that the Israelis get Sinai back? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/72 "2011-09-13T22:39:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Embassies are foreign soil. 🙂 Don’t know if you’re being serious, or poking fun at this irritatingly widespread misconception but in any case and in the interest of edumacating a hypothethical ignorant reader: no, they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/73 "2011-09-13T22:59:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Don’t know if you’re being serious, or poking fun at this irritatingly widespread misconception but in any case and in the interest of edumacating a hypothethical ignorant reader: no, they’re not. My ignorance has been fought. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2011, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/74 "2011-09-15T13:01:13Z")
“I wonder why the Jews and the Arabs can’t behave in a more christian manner.” The Governor ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913/75 "2011-09-16T15:49:26Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > The notion that more democracy=friendlier governments is incredibly stupid and serious proof of intense navel gazing. The Arabs didnt revolt so that the West would feel safer. I must say I find it more than tiresome to constantly have the Arab Spring’s worth assessed based on whether it serves Western interests or not. You could note that our government does not seize on the first opportunity to back the people in a “democratic” uprising. The status quo is good for business and the government. We have spent a lot of time and money developing relations and connections. What our relationship with the new government will be is a huge question. Typically we work in the background to reestablish a government like the one the people took down. It works for our financial interests. When the Egyptian people were fighting ,many wondered why our government was so slow to respond. We really don’t care about their government or whether “democracy” should be gaining a foothold. It does not matter as much as business . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-effects-of-the-arab-spring/595913.md?page=3)