# The Election and Data **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 6, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241 "2013-01-06T06:46:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/61 "2013-01-10T19:46:37Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I guess you win the thread, because I didn’t understand one word of this. The Vienna School of economics believe that aggregate demand occurs at the microeconomic level - you buying groceries, your neighbor buying a car, etc. Proponants of this school of thought would tend to think that the more money that is in the consumers hands, the better the economy will get. Keynesians instead believe that aggregate demand is from govenment spending. I was just pointing out that the Democrat data seems to contradict the current Democrat relience on Keynsian economics (high government spending) to stimulate the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/62 "2013-01-10T19:50:06Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The Vienna School of economics believe that aggregate demand occurs at the microeconomic level - you buying groceries, your neighbor buying a car, etc. Proponants of this school of thought would tend to think that the more money that is in the consumers hands, the better the economy will get. Keynesians instead believe that aggregate demand is from govenment spending. I was just pointing out that the Democrat data seems to contradict the current Democrat relience on Keynsian economics (high government spending) to stimulate the economy. But if the government spending puts the money into the hands of consumers, is that Viennese or Keynesian? Because Democrat **ic** policy has been focused on doing exactly that for a few years now. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/63 "2013-01-10T21:19:46Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > But if the government spending puts the money into the hands of consumers, is that Viennese or Keynesian? Because Democrat **ic** policy has been focused on doing exactly that for a few years now. What percentage of government spending goes directly to consumers? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/64 "2013-01-10T22:17:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Keynesians instead believe that aggregate demand is from govenment spending. Maybe this is why we have a failure to communicate. It bears no resemblance to any real Keynesian thinking. And I mean literally none. I’ll settle for the first hit on Google for Keynesians aggregate demand, [The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics](http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/KeynesianEconomics.html) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/65 "2013-01-11T00:33:26Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > What percentage of government spending goes directly to consumers? Do you consider wages paid to workers on government funded infrastructure projects as money going directly to consumers (the workers) or not? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/66 "2013-01-11T00:41:26Z")
Not to mention people employed directly by the government. I’d say 100% of that spending goes to consumers. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/67 "2013-01-11T16:10:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you consider wages paid to workers on government funded infrastructure projects as money going directly to consumers (the workers) or not? Yes. Mine was an honest question so for example with the defense budget, how much goes to pay and how much goes to companies. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/68 "2013-01-11T18:04:37Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Yes. Mine was an honest question so for example with the defense budget, how much goes to pay and how much goes to companies. But money going to defense companies goes to pay also - perhaps less efficiently than money going directly to soldiers, though. Money going directly to pay is often stimulative - less so if it boosts already high executive wages. Money going out as profits is less so since much of it goes to those whose spending needs are met. Money spend on materials which get blown up isn’t that stimulative unless done in large quantities. If you remember in the last election a lot of people claimed that government never creates jobs. I was not sure if you bought this - but it looks to me that you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/69 "2013-01-13T21:46:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But money going to defense companies goes to pay also - perhaps less efficiently than money going directly to soldiers, though. Money going directly to pay is often stimulative - less so if it boosts already high executive wages. Money going out as profits is less so since much of it goes to those whose spending needs are met. Money spend on materials which get blown up isn’t that stimulative unless done in large quantities. > If you remember in the last election a lot of people claimed that government never creates jobs. I was not sure if you bought this - but it looks to me that you don’t. Right but the question is top-down vs bottom-up economy. So my question is how much miney the government spend goes directly to individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/70 "2013-01-13T22:44:17Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Right but the question is top-down vs bottom-up economy. So my question is how much miney the government spend goes directly to individuals. I assume you mean consumers (after all, all money goes to individuals ultimately). Damn near all of it (only the profit percentage is withheld - and on gov. contracts that usually ain’t much). Tax breaks for the wealthy? Very little goes to consumers. It tends to get invested in stocks and derivatives. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/71 "2013-01-14T02:00:20Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Right but the question is top-down vs bottom-up economy. So my question is how much miney the government spend goes directly to individuals. How do you define these? Is a top-down economy is one where you let the rich have more money in the hope the poor will get some? If you say bottom up is when the government arranges for those on the bottom to get money more directly, doing so by direct payments or indirectly through stimulus is pretty close, with the latter having the advantage of getting something useful accomplished also. (We’re still benefiting from the WPA, after all.) So I’m not sure it makes that much of a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/72 "2013-01-14T02:36:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I saw a Prius the other day with a Jesus Fish on it. > > I decided it must have been a Liberal being ironic. > > The only other possibility is a Conservative with a _really_ long commute. Kinda like seeing a Dead Head sticker on a Cadillac? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/73 "2013-01-14T03:22:34Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I saw a Prius the other day with a Jesus Fish on it. > > I decided it must have been a Liberal being ironic. > > The only other possibility is a Conservative with a _really_ long commute. You’d be surprised. Shortly after I got my Prius back in 2004, there was a discussion on a Prius owner’s messageboard about anthropogenic global warming (AGW), and there seemed to be quite a few Prius owners there who didn’t believe in AGW. It was then that I realized how good a job Toyota had done in cross-marketing the Prius to early adopters of technology in general (or people who had other strong reasons for minimizing their use of gas, like concerns about U.S. dependence on foreign oil, …) By the way, back to the OP…I didn’t see anybody mention [the post that Nate Silver did](http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/28/in-silicon-valley-technology-talent-gap-threatens-g-o-p-campaigns/) on the technology talent gap between Democrats and Republicans, based on the contributions to candidates from employees at Google, Microsoft, … I am not sure I completely buy into his notion that this is such a big deal (after all, how many high-tech people does one campaign really need?), but it is interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241/74 "2013-01-14T21:19:30Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > You’d be surprised. Shortly after I got my Prius back in 2004, there was a discussion on a Prius owner’s messageboard about anthropogenic global warming (AGW), and there seemed to be quite a few Prius owners there who didn’t believe in AGW. > > It was then that I realized how good a job Toyota had done in cross-marketing the Prius to early adopters of technology in general (or people who had other strong reasons for minimizing their use of gas, like concerns about U.S. dependence on foreign oil, …) The reason that there are so many in California is that when they came out Prius owners got carpool stickers which allowed them to drive in the carpool lane by themselves. That is a damn valuable incentive in the Bay Area and LA too, no doubt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-election-and-data/646241.md?page=3)