# The electric car future - problems
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [January 25, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963 "2020-01-25T17:57:10Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/1 "2020-01-25T17:57:10Z")
Watching some youtube vids about taking a road trip with a Tesla or whatever I see some issues. First is it appears that one will have to make a lot more stops, for much longer then in a IC car. This will lead to snacking, overeating and obesity issues because WTH else are you going to do - see the sights?. Yes the places along the route will love those chargers that will bring in additional business. But being on a all you can eat buffet is not what I want for a road trip.
The other issue I have see is in wide area evacuations. In Florida as people were running from a hurricane Tesla extended the range of some cars by a over the air update (apparently all tesla’s are capable of the longest range, just software locked.) But we have he problem of where all these EV’s could be recharged for a mass exodus, we even have trouble with gas cars during those times, but at least people can fill up before the event, and some have some gas in a can at home. But I can’t see how even the fastest supercharger system could handle such a event, and just leave people stranded in long lines at the superchargers.
Now if they could sell a generator that one can use at home for power failures and trail behind for such situations we could have a reasonable EV nation. but until those things can be overcome I can’t see it besides a small niche market.
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### Author:  [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/2 "2020-01-25T18:21:00Z")
For most people, most use is short trips. So for most of the time, what you describe is not relevant
For longer trips, charging will take about 30 minutes every 300+ miles. Not sure that will lead to a second wave in the obesity epidemic.
As to evacuations: many owners will charge cars overnight, so typically they will evacuate with a 300+ mile effective range. That typically gets you out of the evacuation zone. If not, leave a few hours sooner.
All this disregards that we are at the beginning edge of development in battery and especially charging technology. Or, for that matter, parallel developments, such as swapping batteries rather than charging them.
Tbh, at present I would not want to make a long trip in a Tesla, but I doubt I’ll Feel the same in 5 years.
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### Author:  [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/3 "2020-01-25T18:29:19Z")
I think this is a fair criticism and I see nothing but similar issues ahead until there is sufficient infrastructure to support EVs and the technology improves to expedite re-charging times. Watching a recent video describing living with a Jaguar iPace, it was interesting to see the considerable effort required to own an EV and not be limited by the practical range tether of a 90 mile radius, despite the stated full charge 244 mile range.
Some of the challenges encountered were:
- EV cars are far less efficient on highways than stop/go traffic, i.e. the iPace lost 55miles of range on a highway run
- Charger infrastructure is poor due to proprietary plugs, and need for mobile app membership/sign-up just to recharge
- Multiple charging station providers require separate apps and not all will accept debit cards as payment
- Many available stations are often full and wait times can be extensive
- Multiple cables/connector types are needed because not every charging station supports all EV vehicles, so at least one car boot was full of cables and adapters
- For maximum flexibility/mobility, people may need to own two cars, ICE and EV, which is economically and practically limiting
None of this is new with respect to the common objections to owning an EV. It was just interesting to watch a video that clearly demonstrated all these issues in real life.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/4 "2020-01-25T18:46:29Z")
Some criticisms of electric vehicles are raised and discussed in [this _long_ recent thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=884142).
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### Author:  [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/5 "2020-01-25T19:33:33Z")
They seem absolutely perfect for commuting – which is what most of us do. I’ve looked into them and done a little shopping for used ones, just for zipping to work and back. Being sorta-kinda preppers, we already have a \>2000 mile range vehicle for various reasons, including getting outta Dodge should a need arise. So a short range efficient car was on the list.
But 3 things happened: 1) I retired – no need to commute, 2) the Missus’ car was totaled and she replaced with a hybrid, and 3) I re-inherited an old 38mpg Corolla for the few short trips I take now. So sadly I never got to try the full electric versions.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/6 "2020-01-25T20:12:25Z")
Just curious; what is your 2,000 mile range vehicle?
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### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/7 "2020-01-25T22:20:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#):
>
> I think this is a fair criticism and I see nothing but similar issues ahead until there is sufficient infrastructure to support EVs and the technology improves to expedite re-charging times. Watching a recent video describing living with a Jaguar iPace, it was interesting to see the considerable effort required to own an EV and not be limited by the practical range tether of a 90 mile radius, despite the stated full charge 244 mile range.
I’ve owned an iPace for 6 months now. For my driving needs, it has not been a “challenge” at all, and has been the best driving experience of my life. (acknowledging that it doesn’t fit everyone’s needs, but I don’t think I’m that unusual)
> [@](#):
>
> Some of the challenges encountered were:
>
> - EV cars are far less efficient on highways than stop/go traffic, i.e. the iPace lost 55miles of range on a highway run
I haven’t noticed that. But true to a lessor extent. I assume I’ve got 200 mile range each morning, just to be conservative. (Jaguar has announced a software update that will improve range by about 15%, they say)
> [@](#):
>
> - Charger infrastructure is poor due to proprietary plugs, and need for mobile app membership/sign-up just to recharge
it’s not the plugs, which are available at all charging stations (except Tesla, which does have proprietary plugs). You do have to download apps for several differnet services. A small one-time hassle. I have two cards in my car (ChargePoint and Blink) and two apps on my phone, and I can (I think) charge everywhere now.
> [@](#):
>
> - Multiple charging station providers require separate apps and not all will accept debit cards as payment
See above
> [@](#):
>
> - Many available stations are often full and wait times can be extensive
I read that this was a problem at one Tesla station over last Thanksgiving. I typically see many emptying available chargers when I pass by. I have only used a fast charger on one trip. I used different locations on the way there and on return trip. Both times the chargers had 3 to 5 available spots while I was charging.
Remember, for most of us we only need a rapid charger one or two days a year. Every other day we have plenty of range from overnight charging.
> [@](#):
>
> - Multiple cables/connector types are needed because not every charging station supports all EV vehicles, so at least one car boot was full of cables and adapters
Simply not true. Charging stations have cables and connectors. I have one cable in my car for charging at a 110 outlet, which I would almost never do. (I use it at the airport when I’m going to be there for 2 to 5 days and in no rush to charge up)
> [@](#):
>
> - For maximum flexibility/mobility, people may need to own two cars, ICE and EV, which is economically and practically limiting
True, although many households own two cars already. If I needed an ICE car, I’d use my Wife’s.
I think the consensus in the other thread was that if you routinely drive over 200 miles a day or have very unusual driving patterns, an EV is not for you. Also, some areas of the country seem to be undeserved by charging stations currently.
But for commuting and an occasional long trip, EV’s are a dream vehicle.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/8 "2020-01-25T22:52:28Z")
No question that if I was very concerned about having to get more than 200 miles out of Dodge on a moments notice, or even was planning for that specific vehicle to be used for even one long road trip a year, I’d not choose an EV at this time.
Since neither applies to my wife and me we are loving her new Nissan Leaf Plus. And we’d take my plug-in hybrid (which does most of its daily miles all-electric) for the road trip.
As for how many DO need to evacuate more than 200 miles? Pretty few. A big problem during [Hurricane Irma in 2018](https://www.tampabay.com/hurricane-guide/Hurricane-2018-Evacuating-Drive-tens-of-miles-not-hundreds_168125698/) for example, was the huge number of those evacuating who did not need to and those driving farther than was necessary for safety.
> [@](#):
>
> **Evacuating? Drive tens of miles — not hundreds** … Experts and emergency management officials often tell those who must evacuate to drive tens of miles, not hundreds. If people don’t live in an evacuation zone, they’re encouraged to shelter in place instead of risking a road trip and adding to already dangerous levels of traffic. … “There’s a high risk for the people who really need to get out of these storm surge zones and might not be able to be, because people who don’t need to evacuate are clogging up the roadways,” said Preston Cook, emergency management director for Hillsborough County. “It’s not always a given that you’re going to be safe. When you’re out on the road, that in itself is more dangerous than if you’re in a safe home.” … those who do live in evacuation zones should heed evacuation orders, Cook said, they just shouldn’t try to drive hundreds of miles to reach safety.
The market of those who do not need their next car purchase to be as long road trip ideal as an ICE vehicle is, and who are more interested in having a vehicle _far superior_ for their everyday needs, is a pretty big niche. Not everyone, no question.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/9 "2020-01-25T23:01:31Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> Just curious; what is your 2,000 mile range vehicle?
I’d assume a car or truck with axillary fuel tanks could pull that off.
As to op, people have already addressed the issues (most trips are short, recharging doesn’t take too long on a supercharger, etc)
But also as battery tech comes down in price, vehicle distances will increase. Cars that go 500 miles on a charge will probably exist by the end of the decade.
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### Author:  [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/10 "2020-01-25T23:07:28Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> Just curious; what is your 2,000 mile range vehicle?
Full sized turbo-diesel pickup (Ram 2500 crew cab), with aftermarket tanks. 92 gallons onboard, and normal highway is 23 mpg. Roughly 2100 miles if not towing.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/11 "2020-01-25T23:23:52Z")
Some people mention the 2 car solution, one ICE one EV. But that’s just a typical old argument that is used not to get a efficient car.
It goes something like this, I have this big SUV truck, and I will get a sub-compact car. However once I ran the numbers it appears that it would just be better to just drive the big SUV truck everywhere. Also think of the environmental cost of 2 vehicles instead of 1.
Perhaps 2 people can make it work, but typically the numbers don’t work for one person.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/12 "2020-01-25T23:24:49Z")
I think there’s a good point here about emergencies. If my power goes out, I still have natural gas heat. If we have to evacuate, our gas cars are unaffected bh the power outage.
I’m imagining a future where we have transitioned to electric cars and electric heat. A couple of weeks ago it hit -47C here, and there were warnings of potential blackouts. But one of the things that kept strain off the grid was natural gas heat. Take that away, and not only will the grid be extra stressed in that cold, but if fails we not only freeze, but we lose the ability to charge electric cars. And evacuating a major deep-freeze is not a short evacuation - it’s hundreds of miles.
That didn’t stop our idiotic government from announcing plans to phase out all fossil fuels and create a fully electric infrastructure. Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket…
It’s also not clear how much range you will lose if it’s -50c outside.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/13 "2020-01-25T23:46:48Z")
[AAA says cold weather can cut electric car range by 40%](https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/wireStory/aaa-cold-weather-cut-electric-car-range-40-60902845)
> [@](#):
>
> At 20 degrees, the average driving range fell by 12 percent when the car’s cabin heater was not used. When the heater was turned on, the range dropped by 41 percent, AAA said.
>
> At 95 degrees, range dropped 4 percent without use of air conditioning, and fell by 17 percent when the cabin was cooled, the study found.
>
> For example, AAA’s testers determined that the Tesla’s range when fully charged at 75 degrees was 239 miles, but it fell 91 miles, or 38 percent, at 20 degrees.
20 degrees (-7C) is a balmy winter day for us. If an electric car loses that much range at 20 degrees, how will it perform at -30c? That’s a relatively common winter temperature in Canada. At those temps, almost nothing electronic even works. My ipad, camera, scope electronics, scope battery… all shut down long before we hit -30, let alone -50. So electric cars need to keep the battery and electronics warm, which cuts into range. One report of a Jaguar iPace said it lost more than half of its range at -27c. I’ll bet it loses at least another 20-30% if it goes down to -40c.
So I’m imagining a city full of electric cars in various states of charge. Maybe an average range between them of 300 km or so. A deep freeze hits, the power goes out, and people pile into their cars to go where it’s warmer. Except now the average range is only 100km, which won’t get you to even the nearest city. So you’ll have people trapped in frozen metal bricks on the highways without any heat at all. Fun times.
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### Author:  [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/14 "2020-01-25T23:52:08Z")
I’m not sure if electric cars are any worse for evacuations. Most electric cars are fully charged every night, whereas many gasoline-powered cars are allowed to go down to \<1/4 tank before filling up. Also, most evacuations happen with some advance warning. Which would you rather do, go home and plug in your car, or go to a gas station where there is a long line of people waiting to fill up their cars?
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2020, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/15 "2020-01-26T00:37:38Z")
> [@scr4](#):
>
> I’m not sure if electric cars are any worse for evacuations. Most electric cars are fully charged every night, whereas many gasoline-powered cars are allowed to go down to \<1/4 tank before filling up. Also, most evacuations happen with some advance warning. Which would you rather do, go home and plug in your car, or go to a gas station where there is a long line of people waiting to fill up their cars?
If the emergency is a blackout, I can’t charge the car. But even if I could, a typical electric car with a 300km range under ideal conditions might get less than half that range in a cold emergency. That won’t get you anywhere. Especially true if traffic is jammed, since you’ll be running the heater and battery warmer at full blast even when stopped. And a lot of the electric cars available here only have a 230km range in excellent conditions.
And while some people don’t keep there cars very full of gas, lots do, even a quarter tank would likely give you more range in those conditions. Hell, my Ford Escape can go 80km more after the low fuel light comes on, which doesn’t happen until the needle is barely above E. On a full tank I can go over 500km.
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### Author:  [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2020, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/16 "2020-01-26T00:48:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> …
> And while some people don’t keep there cars very full of gas, lots do, even a quarter tank would likely give you more range in those conditions. Hell, my Ford Escape can go 80km more after the low fuel light comes on, which doesn’t happen until the needle is barely above E. On a full tank I can go over 500km.
Also quite a few people in at least more rural environments will have some gasoline on hand. I typically have about 5 gallons plus whatever is in the generator which has a 8 gal tank. If there is a pending issue I will also be sure to fill up the cars as well before it happens along with perhaps another 5 gal or in a container.
But I can see a problem with EV’s where everyone is filling their EV at home at a coming storm, and continually topping it off, perhaps overloading the grid.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/17 "2020-01-26T01:48:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#):
>
> 20 degrees (-7C) is a balmy winter day for us. If an electric car loses that much range at 20 degrees, how will it perform at -30c? That’s a relatively common winter temperature in Canada.
What is the situation where you have to evacuate in the middle of the winter and drive hundreds of miles to another city? How often does this happen? The OP talks about evacuations in Florida during hurricane season, but that doesn’t correspond with winter.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2020, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/18 "2020-01-26T04:27:23Z")
Funny enough the problem as Hurricane Dorian approached was that [gas stations were running out of fuel.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/08/30/hurricane-dorian-gas-stations/2162882001/) Electrical power was just fine.
And when the power is out … well in general you’re shit out of luck for being able to fill up your tank. Pumps use power.
In one of the more famous disasters in recent times, Japan’s earthquake and tsunami, EVs [“turned out to be the vehicles that got through”](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/automobiles/08JAPAN.html)
> [@](#):
>
> — not because of any special ability to claw their way over mountains of debris, but because they were able to “refuel” at common electrical outlets.
>
> With oil refineries out of commission and clogged roadways slowing deliveries, finding gasoline had become a challenge. Shortages were so acute that Japan’s Self-Defense Forces had to truck in gasoline; donations of diesel fuel were accepted from China.
>
> Yet in Sendai, about 250 miles northeast of Tokyo, and other cities ravaged by the earthquake, electricity returned within days. …
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### Author:  [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/19 "2020-01-26T19:22:18Z")
I live in an apartment building with underground garage. Each person has one or two parking places that they personally own. So far, the condo management has not said a word about charging stations. But each parking place would have to be a charging station. Alternately, they would have to buy a number of parking places (there are currently only three for sale) and make them into charging stations. I don’t see how it could work.
Several decades ago, I read a discussion of the possibility of electric vehicles and the claim was made that there is not enough copper in the world to wind hundreds of millions of electric vehicles.
Other side of the coin: I read a couple days ago that Tesla has passed GM in market cap and is second in the world–to Nissan–among auto companies. It was in connection with the fact that is the market cap stays above $100 billion for 6 consecutive months, Elon Musk gets a huge bonus (order of several hundred million).
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [January 26, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-electric-car-future-problems/846963/20 "2020-01-26T19:55:15Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#):
>
> I live in an apartment building with underground garage. Each person has one or two parking places that they personally own. So far, the condo management has not said a word about charging stations. But each parking place would have to be a charging station. Alternately, they would have to buy a number of parking places (there are currently only three for sale) and make them into charging stations. I don’t see how it could work.
Why would each parking space have to be a charging station? Wouldn’t the choice of adding a charger be the decision of the individual owner? Presumably, some will buy an electric car and want the convenience of at-home charging. Others may be OK with using public chargers. Still others will continue to own and drive ICE vehicles.
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