# The elephant in the room: George W. Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 9, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578 "2011-12-09T02:09:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/61 "2011-12-12T04:52:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I’m not defending the decision to invade Iraq. Yet you rationalize it by declaring it a win for the US. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > What I am saying is that the war while bad for the GOP and the country is not on the same level of disaster as Saigon falling. That is not what you were saying. That is what you are saying now. The fall of Saigon has nothing to do with this conversation. It is insensitive in the extreme for you to attempt to diminish the absolute tragedy of Iraq by comparing it to a completely unrelated event. Stop deflecting. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Is that why there were jubilant crowds as the US troops entered Baghdad and the crowds toppled the statues of Saddam Hussein? **Curtis** , you’re smarter than this. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > How did we exactly strip them of their dignity and humanity? We bombed them with near-nondiscrimination. We raided homes and arrested sons, fathers, and husbands with little, and sometimes no, evidence of any crime committed. We strolled through neighborhoods we’d previously bombed and shot up, and interrogated people who’d lost everything, at the point of a gun, dismissing their pleas, dismissing their tears, dismissing their wrenching hopelessness. We shot Iraqi citizens dead simply for being too close to our vehicles, or driving too slowly, or simply for target practice. We raped women and, in at least one case, a girl as young as 14, that is after we killed the girl’s parents and six year-old brother by shooting them in the head and then burning their bodies. We committed these and many other deplorable acts resulting in the stripping away of any dignity the Iraqi people previously possessed, until they were left hollow and bereft of anything resembling humanity except for the building embers of resentment and hatred that our presence and actions had ignited within them. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Did we try to destroy their culture or force them to convert? Of course we did, to the sacred, American religion of democracy. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The majority may not have wanted invasion but the majority of Iraq-Kurds and Shias both were oppressed and discrimnated against. Both have gained as a result of the invasion. Why do you continue to attempt to justify that which you repeatedly state you would not have supported? The wholly incidental benefit the Kurds and Shia received do absolutely nothing to diminish our illegal and immoral acts. Do you not understand that it was not our responsibility, our place, nor our right to invade a sovereign nation, and worse, under false pretenses? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In addition you seem to paint the American occupation as some support of Soviet occupation of Germany in 1945 or the Nazi occupation of France complete with massacres, deportations, and mass gang rapes. One massacre by American forces is one too many. One displacement caused by American forces is one too many. One gang rape by American forces is one too many. One American justifying the commission of evil upon the innocent is one too many. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > As I’ve said with hindsight I would not have supported the Iraq war. Then stop defending it. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/62 "2011-12-12T12:45:49Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > …Who cares about hindsight? Had you been older than six at the time, you would have been eagerly panting at the bait along with the rest of the crew. Perhaps, even at six, you were anyway. And if Young Curtis had been of military age during our Southeastern Asia adventure, he would have been vocally for the war. But, alas, his allergies or his asthma or his Asperger’s would have prevented him from serving. A Chicken Hawk, that is… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/63 "2011-12-12T13:32:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > In addition you seem to paint the American occupation as some support of Soviet occupation of Germany in 1945 or the Nazi occupation of France complete with massacres, deportations, and mass gang rapes. That’s **exactly** how it turned out, except that those atrocities were not committed by the occupying troops, but by some sectors of the occupied population against others. At least Hussein (like Tito in Yugoslavia) was able to keep them off each other’s throats. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/64 "2011-12-12T15:34:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Might add a little incident that happened ten Septembers ago to your list. > [@Chronos](#): > > That’s not really fair. I mean, he can’t take credit for staving off all terrorist attacks, like some have claimed for him, but it’s difficult to say that any other president could have prevented 9-11, either. Now, his _response_ to 9-11, that we most certainly can criticize, but **Damuri** already called out the Iraq War, which was the biggest problem with his response. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > You mean the 9-11 he failed to prevent even after Clinton warning him about it, and his own people warning him about it? Yeah, sorry, no sympathy for the devil… > [@RTFirefly](#): > > It would be unfair if they had taken the threat of terrorism seriously from the beginning, and had still been unable to prevent the attack. > > But they didn’t. The Clinton team told them that terrorism would be the biggest threat they’d have to worry about, and it wasn’t like the Bush team hadn’t heard about the bombings of our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, and the USS Cole bombing in late 2000. > > But they decided that whatever Clinton did, they wanted to do something different, so they didn’t bother thinking about terrorism, ignoring the infamous August 6, 2001 PDB (“Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.”) - as Bush apparently said to the guy who delivered the PDB, “OK, you’ve covered your ass.” > > I think it was quite preventable. The main obstacles were information that was either (a) stovepiped, or (b) being blocked from flowing upward to decision-makers. The sort of approach that Clinton and Gore applied to the threat of the Millennium bombings had an excellent chance of overcoming both problems. > > Note that I said “excellent chance,” not “certainty.” Even if Gore had won the election, the attack still might well have worked. We’ll never know whether a Gore Administration would have been able to prevent it, because Gore lost the election. And we’ll never know whether a Bush Administration that took the pretty obvious upswing of terrorist capabilities seriously would have been able to prevent it, _because they didn’t try_. > > And the reason I continue to hold them accountable is that they didn’t try. Even when warned in general but strong terms by both the Clinton Administration on the way out the door, and warned in very clear terms on August 6, 2001. > > So yeah, I hold them culpable. They deserve it. > [@handsomeharry](#): > > Wait, are you saying that Bill Clinton knew it would happen on 9-11? Why didn’t he go onto national television and tell people about it? He would certainly have had a venue, I’m sure. > How did Clinton get his intelligence that it would be on 9-11, and that it would be by those airlines? Couldn’t those intelligence sources have told W? > Or, was it just some mystical ramblings about something going to happen somewhere and it would be big??? > > hh > [@Knorf](#): > > W. Bush did in fact receive warnings from [intelligence sources](http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/SMI402A.html) that terrorists might be planning on using airplanes. He also was warned by the outgoing administration that Al Qaeda was a very serious and probably imminent threat. I’m with Chronos on this. I hate Bush with the fire of a thousand suns but he didn’t exactly invite the terrorists to come and fly planes into our buildings. He didn’t consider it a credible threat and IIRC we never uncovered any specific evidence of a plot before the fact that we could have foiled. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Twisting the Geneva Accords to allow the kidnap & trial without detention of suspects around the world, that’s pretty bad. Of course, Obama’s still doing that. But we can hold W responsible for the precedent. Yeah, that doesn’t bother me all that much depending on the circumstances. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Then why didn’t Clinton actually send in a commando team rather than just lob missiles? Its not as if Gore would have been elected he’d have slayed Bin Laden. True but… > [@Lobohan](#): > > If Gore had been elected he almost certainly wouldn’t have left the guys at [Tora Bora](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora) hanging so he could focus on the nonsense war in Iraq. And if this didn’t convince us that 9/11 wasn’t what was driving bush’s decisions then nothing would. > [@](#): > > As for Clinton lobbing missiles, he used them where he thought they could do good. Putting soldiers in the field is a big deal, I certainly trust his judgement on the issue more than yours. I’m a big fan of lobbing missiles and using predator drones. I think we used them to great effect in Libya and look forward to using the tactic all across the globe where simple artillery and air support can get rid of bad guys. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > How would the deadlock against Iraq over WMDs have turned out then? There are those who think that Gore would have invaded Iraq just later after gaining international support. > > He had no problem putting troops in Bosnia, Somalia, and Kosovo although none of them posed a danger to America unlike OBL\> What deadlock? What WMDs? We would never have gotten intl (read NATO support). BTW, WTF does OBL have to do with Iraq? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Bush didn’t invade Iraq to go after Osama bin Laden. He invaded Iraq instead of going after Osama bin Laden. Quoted for truth. > [@](#): > > Obama was the one who got us back on the trail of the guy who attacked the United States. Back on the trail? He did more than that didn’t he? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No I did not mean that. I meant the crisis with Iraq over the alledged existence of WMDs. It was a crisis taht Bush manufactured to create a pretext for invasion. Frankly he not only fabricated the WMDs, he fabricated a link between Iraq and OBL to make those WMDs a credible threat to the USA. Al qaeda was going to be Saddam Hussein’s delivery system for those WMDs. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Genocidal? And with the benefit of hindsight I’ve said and will say again I wouldn’t have supported Iraq. But you seem to think it was a good idea at the time. [quote=“Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi, post:53, topic:605578”] I’m not defending the decision to invade Iraq. What I am saying is that the war while bad for the GOP and the country is not on the same level of disaster as Saigon falling. However let me do since you made this post make a few points. Sure sounds like youa re defending the decision to invade iraq. [quote] Is that why there were jubilant crowds as the US troops entered Baghdad and the crowds toppled the statues of Saddam Hussein? How did we exactly strip them of their dignity and humanity? Did we try to destroy their culture or force them to convert? All contrived, carefully cropped photo ops. > [@](#): > > The majority may not have wanted invasion but the majority of Iraq-Kurds and Shias both were oppressed and discrimnated against. Both have gained as a result of the invasion. In addition you seem to paint the American occupation as some support of Soviet occupation of Germany in 1945 or the Nazi occupation of France complete with massacres, deportations, and mass gang rapes. It is true that 50 years from now we may have a prosperous stable democratic Iraq that comes oputn of our invasion there. We may also have a prosperous stable democratic Libya, Morocco, Egypt, Yemen, etc. as a result of the organic internally driven democratic movements. I think that as long as we can prevent nuclearization of non-democratic countries, all countries will people will eventually overthrow despotic regimes in favor of more democratic ones. > [@](#): > > As I’ve said with hindsight I would not have supported the Iraq war. But you do now? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well everybody was mistaken about the intelligence. The war happened with strong support by the American people. Not exactly. The invasion occurred based on the link that was created by the administration between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. It was magnified by non existent WMDs that Saddam Hussein was going to give to Osama Bin laden to use against us. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I stand by my earlier assessment; George W. Bush may have been a failure, but everything he did was right. A Republican who promises the same things will get the same support from the same people. What did he do taht was right? > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Maybe it wasn’t that actually bad. Remember that Bush faced a recession when he entered the Oval Office exacerbated by 9-11 and had one when he got out due to the Democratic policy of encouraging home ownership even for those who could not afford it. But his middle years were of great prosperity. Great prosperity? What metric are you using to gauge this? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/65 "2011-12-12T15:40:07Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Yet you rationalize it by declaring it a win for the US.That is not what you were saying. That is what you are saying now. The fall of Saigon has nothing to do with this conversation. It is insensitive in the extreme for you to attempt to diminish the absolute tragedy of Iraq by comparing it to a completely unrelated event. Stop deflecting. **Curtis** , you’re smarter than this.We bombed them with near-nondiscrimination. We raided homes and arrested sons, fathers, and husbands with little, and sometimes no, evidence of any crime committed. We strolled through neighborhoods we’d previously bombed and shot up, and interrogated people who’d lost everything, at the point of a gun, dismissing their pleas, dismissing their tears, dismissing their wrenching hopelessness. We shot Iraqi citizens dead simply for being too close to our vehicles, or driving too slowly, or simply for target practice. We raped women and, in at least one case, a girl as young as 14, that is after we killed the girl’s parents and six year-old brother by shooting them in the head and then burning their bodies. We committed these and many other deplorable acts resulting in the stripping away of any dignity the Iraqi people previously possessed, until they were left hollow and bereft of anything resembling humanity except for the building embers of resentment and hatred that our presence and actions had ignited within them.Of course we did, to the sacred, American religion of democracy. Why do you continue to attempt to justify that which you repeatedly state you would not have supported? The wholly incidental benefit the Kurds and Shia received do absolutely nothing to diminish our illegal and immoral acts. Do you not understand that it was not our responsibility, our place, nor our right to invade a sovereign nation, and worse, under false pretenses? One massacre by American forces is one too many. > One displacement caused by American forces is one too many. > One gang rape by American forces is one too many. > > One American justifying the commission of evil upon the innocent is one too many. > > Then stop defending it. Bad shit happens in every war. There are very few wars that leave the women unraped, innocent people killed and populations displaced. I think you can justify at leasst displacement in a just war and I think htat innnocent death is an unavoidable side effect of any war. I would propose that giving a bunch of teenage boys guns amongst a disarmed population is an invitation to rape that must be dealt with by a firing squad unless we are ready to abandon the concept of war altogether (which we will never do unless every other nation does the same, which will never happen). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/66 "2011-12-12T17:25:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What did he do taht was right? If you’re asking me, not much. Read my first post in this thread. The topic is about Republican candidates distancing themselves from George W. Bush. My point is that they’re not and they don’t have to; not in any real sense. The applause lines and talking points are the same now as they were then, just coming out of different mouths. As **Qin** is demonstrating, the true believers will still defend Bush on the specifics, and still cheer for someone just like him. The years 2001-2009 happened, but they have not learned anything from them. The Republican nominee should run the exact same campaign that Bush did. The only thing about Bush that’s discredited is his name. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/67 "2011-12-12T19:10:39Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well everybody was mistaken about the intelligence. This is a falsehood and always has been. The “everybody” part, I mean. Plenty of reasons to question the “intelligence” in the months leading up to the war came to light, and plenty of people did question it, including the actual UN weapons inspectors actually in Iraq. Hans Blix, chief UN weapons inspector, said there were no WMDs in the months before the war, and that Iraq was being cooperative. Scott Ritter, former chief weapons inspector, reversed his earlier position and said the following, in June, _1999_: “When you ask the question, ‘Does Iraq possess militarily viable biological or chemical weapons?’ the answer is no! It is a resounding NO. Can Iraq produce today chemical weapons on a meaningful scale? No! Can Iraq produce biological weapons on a meaningful scale? No! Ballistic missiles? No! It is ‘no’ across the board. So from a qualitative standpoint, Iraq has been disarmed. Iraq today possesses no meaningful weapons of mass destruction capability.” [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction). Read the “Between inspections: 1998-2002” section in particular. There were voices stating that Iraq had no WMDs. Some of us heard them. > [@](#): > > The war happened with strong support by the American people. Your use of the word “strong” abuses the accepted definition. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/68 "2011-12-12T20:33:18Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The Republican nominee should run the exact same campaign that Bush did. The only thing about Bush that’s discredited is his name. A bit more is discredited. His support of the bailout which saved the economy, for instance. Sure they screwed it up by not attaching strings, but what he did was a lot better than what the mainstream Republicans wanted. His very reasonable immigration plan is also something the Republican base rejects. But mostly I agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/69 "2011-12-12T20:39:01Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well everybody was mistaken about the intelligence. The war happened with strong support by the American people. Actually no. At the time of the invasion, the majority of the American people wanted only a war with international (UN) support. Which Bush didn’t have, since all the major powers except England knew there were no WMDs. Remember, intelligence in 2001 has no bearing on the correctness of the decision - only intelligence at the time of the invasion. The UN inspectors got to see everything including the places where US intelligence placed WMDs. Listening to the reports of Hans Blix at the time made it very clear to me there were no WMDs. If Bush had proof, or even pictures, they could have shown them to the SC members and the vote on the invasion would have come out differently. Bush and company got more and more rabid as the evidence drained away. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/70 "2011-12-12T20:56:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What did he do taht was right? He got elected President twice. I think that’s the point Robot Arm is making. To some people it’s not about telling the truth or serving the greater good or doing a good job. It’s about winning the election and Bush had the formula for that. And if it still works, the Republicans can plug a new candidate into the same formula and use it to get somebody else elected. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/71 "2011-12-12T21:39:53Z")
That argument still has to account for the fact that Obama won in 2008, though. A large part of Obama’s campaign consisted of “Bush’s policies were terrible; I’m going to change them”, and the majority of the country agreed with him. As for “everyone knew” that Iraq had WMDs, that’s just not true. Either Bush or someone working for him was working overtime to fabricate that evidence, and surely the fabricators knew that it was fake. And their boss and boss’s boss, up to the President, damn well _should_ have known. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/72 "2011-12-13T06:56:57Z")
I thought the right-wing spin nowadays was that the war in Iraq was never about WMDs, it was about bringing democracy to Iraq, and was justified because Saddam Hussein was a bad man who did bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/73 "2011-12-13T12:33:48Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > I thought the right-wing spin nowadays was that the war in Iraq was never about WMDs, it was about bringing democracy to Iraq, and was justified because Saddam Hussein was a bad man who did bad things. That’s a worse argument than Iraq had WMD. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/74 "2011-12-13T13:27:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That argument still has to account for the fact that Obama won in 2008, though. A large part of Obama’s campaign consisted of “Bush’s policies were terrible; I’m going to change them” Will a large part of Gingrich’s campaign or Romney’s campaign consist of “Obama’s policies are terrible; I’m going to change them”? How will that work for them? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/75 "2011-12-13T14:05:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That argument still has to account for the fact that Obama won in 2008, though. A large part of Obama’s campaign consisted of “Bush’s policies were terrible; I’m going to change them”, and the majority of the country agreed with him. Absolutely true. There’s a huge disconnect with reality among conservatives over the 2008 election. They somehow just can’t believe that Obama was elected. It must all be some kind of mistake. All they need to do is have another election and give people a chance to vote for a President they want, ie a conservative. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/76 "2011-12-13T15:14:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Absolutely true. There’s a huge disconnect with reality among conservatives over the 2008 election. They somehow just can’t believe that Obama was elected. It must all be some kind of mistake. All they need to do is have another election and give people a chance to vote for a President they want, ie a conservative. It was the same in the Clinton years, all of them. For a Dem actually to take the WH after the Reagan Revolution seemed to many RWs an impossible reversal of history, like a Jacobite restoration, it **couldn’t** be real. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/77 "2011-12-13T18:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Will a large part of Gingrich’s campaign or Romney’s campaign consist of “Obama’s policies are terrible; I’m going to change them”? How will that work for them? Probably; that is after all a very logical position for the party out of power to take. How well it’ll work, we’ll have to wait and see. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/78 "2011-12-15T06:29:01Z")
Sorry I’m responding to this late, also I’m a bit tired so they might be rather incoherent… > [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Yet you rationalize it by declaring it a win for the US. No I’m stripping it of exaggerations and seeing it for what it is. If someone was here talking about how Iraq was a wise decision I’d be criticizing him too. > [@](#): > > That is not what you were saying. That is what you are saying now. The fall of Saigon has nothing to do with this conversation. Someone was comparing Iraq to Vietnam which prompted my response here. > [@](#): > > It is insensitive in the extreme for you to attempt to diminish the absolute tragedy of Iraq by comparing it to a completely unrelated event. Stop deflecting. I’m not as seen above. Iraq was bad but its not as bad as Vietnam. > [@](#): > > **Curtis** , you’re smarter than this.We bombed them with near-nondiscrimination. We raided homes and arrested sons, fathers, and husbands with little, and sometimes no, evidence of any crime committed. We strolled through neighborhoods we’d previously bombed and shot up, and interrogated people who’d lost everything, at the point of a gun, dismissing their pleas, dismissing their tears, dismissing their wrenching hopelessness. We shot Iraqi citizens dead simply for being too close to our vehicles, or driving too slowly, or simply for target practice. We raped women and, in at least one case, a girl as young as 14, that is after we killed the girl’s parents and six year-old brother by shooting them in the head and then burning their bodies. All these were detestable and horrible crimes and the military should punish them severely. But it was not the policy of the US government unlike say the Japanese at Nanjing or the Nazis in the Eastern Front to rape women or slaughter civilians. > [@](#): > > We committed these and many other deplorable acts resulting in the stripping away of any dignity the Iraqi people previously possessed, until they were left hollow and bereft of anything resembling humanity except for the building embers of resentment and hatred that our presence and actions had ignited within them That ignores the tremendous amount of aid the US has given to Iraq. Not to mention most Iraqis have been more pragmatic than that. > [@](#): > > Of course we did, to the sacred, American religion of democracy. Why do you continue to attempt to justify that which you repeatedly state you would not have supported? I’m showing both sides of the coin that is all. While the Iraq War was bad it wasn’t some maniacal war of conquest. > [@](#): > > The wholly incidental benefit the Kurds and Shia received do absolutely nothing to diminish our illegal and immoral acts. It does not but it does disprove the statement that the Iraqis overwhelmingly hate America. > [@](#): > > Do you not understand that it was not our responsibility, our place, nor our right to invade a sovereign nation, and worse, under false pretenses? One massacre by American forces is one too many. > One displacement caused by American forces is one too many. > One gang rape by American forces is one too many. > > One American justifying the commission of evil upon the innocent is one too many. I agree. > [@](#): > > Then stop defending it. See above. Although the Iraq War was a disaster many of these statements are inaccurate or a tad bit exaggerated. > [@](#): > > What deadlock? What WMDs? We would never have gotten intl (read NATO support). > BTW, WTF does OBL have to do with Iraq? Nothing. I never said anyting to the contrary. > [@](#): > > But you seem to think it was a good idea at the time. Well I was six then so I can’t say what I thought. > [@](#): > > Sure sounds like youa re defending the decision to invade iraq. No being objective and showing the good and bad of it. > [@](#): > > All contrived, carefully cropped photo ops. So nobody was glad Saddam was gone. > [@](#): > > What did he do taht was right? Appoint good Supreme Court justices, give aid to combat AIDS in Africa, build up trade relationships with other countries, cleaned up his own mess in Iraq, attempted immigration reform… > [@](#): > > Great prosperity? What metric are you using to gauge this? General metres of stock market numbers, unemployment rates, and economic growth rates. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/79 "2011-12-15T06:55:12Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Appoint good Supreme Court justices I strongly disagree on that. Roberts and Alito are bad Justices who were appointed to the Supreme Court to advance conservative interests by judicial activism. And Bush’s attempted appointment of Harriet Miers was a major fumble for his administration. > [@](#): > > give aid to combat AIDS in Africa Agree. I’ll give Bush credit for having a strong African policy. He did better than most Presidents here. > [@](#): > > build up trade relationships with other countries And he did poorly here and in any other area that involved foreign relations. > [@](#): > > cleaned up his own mess in Iraq How so? We were still highly involved in Iraq when he left office. > [@](#): > > attempted immigration reform… And failed badly mostly due to the anti-immigrant hysteria fomented by his own party. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578/80 "2011-12-16T19:53:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The Republican candidate is going to pretend that the years 2001-2009 never happened. The theme will be every problem we have began when Barack Obama took office and every problem will be solved by removing him from office (and cutting taxes). No. We will acknowledge that they happened. We will also acknowledge that Obama made the situation worse, not better. A damn sight worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elephant-in-the-room-george-w-bush/605578.md?page=5)