# The elevated social status of soldiers, police officers, and firemen, is it well deserved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719 "2011-11-12T19:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RogerDalien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9de0a6/32.png) [@RogerDalien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RogerDalien)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/1 "2011-11-12T19:28:30Z")
Do you agree with the elevated status of soldiers and police officers and firemen and some other public employees? We praise them for their “self-sacrifice” but I’ve always wondered if it’s really sacrifice. It seems like these are good jobs, with good benefits and a good pension, doesn’t seem like sacrifice. There are many more people who want to be come police officers and firemen than there are spots. So, well deserved or not? ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/2 "2011-11-12T19:45:12Z")
“We salute the rank, not the man.” - Richard Winters We respect them because their job carries a realistic _potential_ for self-sacrifice and a heavy dose of highly unpleasant duties, but of course any further level of regard (or not) will be determined on an individual basis. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/3 "2011-11-12T19:52:36Z")
Yeah, at least little bit. They do put their lives on the line more than the folks down at the local DMV. They choose their jobs, sure, but most of us are thankful they’re doing it and not us. ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/4 "2011-11-12T19:52:39Z")
😕 Yes. We respect them because at any given point in what might seem like an ordinary, mundane day they could be killed violently out of nowhere, for our protection. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/5 "2011-11-12T19:59:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, at least little bit. They do put their lives on the line more than the folks down at the local DMV. They choose their jobs, sure, but most of us are thankful they’re doing it and not us. [Less so](http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0009.pdf) (pdf) then loggers, fishermen, roofers, aircraft pilots and engineers, farmers and ranchers, Mining Machine operators, refuse and recyclable materials collectors, truck drivers and industrial machine repairmen. So I don’t think you can really put the respect afforded police and firemen on assumption of physical risk necessary to perform their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/6 "2011-11-12T20:01:37Z")
> [@voguevixen](#): > > 😕 > > Yes. We respect them because at any given point in what might seem like an ordinary, mundane day they could be killed violently out of nowhere, for our protection. Really? That happens a lot to firefighters? ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/7 "2011-11-12T20:04:22Z")
> [@RogerDalien](#): > > We praise them for their “self-sacrifice” but I’ve always wondered if it’s really sacrifice. It seems like these are good jobs, with good benefits and a good pension, doesn’t seem like sacrifice. Just because you get good pay and pension to do a tough job that means you’re ‘on the line’ doesn’t mean you aren’t worthy of the elevated status. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/8 "2011-11-12T20:14:58Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Less so then loggers, fishermen, roofers, aircraft pilots and engineers, farmers and ranchers, Mining Machine operators, refuse and recyclable materials collectors, truck drivers and industrial machine repairmen. The difference is that if there’s a forest fire, the loggers will be running away from the fire if they can. The firemen will be running towards the fire to rescue those people who can’t get away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/9 "2011-11-12T20:17:44Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > “We salute the rank, not the man.” - Richard Winters I’ve never understood what that is supposed to mean, sound like nonsense to me. Nobody…and I mean nobody, gets automatic respect from me just because they hold a given position. They’ll get the same civility and courtesy from me as would anyone. Titles and ranks are no indication of a man’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/10 "2011-11-12T20:24:16Z")
I’ve always felt like it was an overreaction to 9/11, and I say this as a veteran who married a veteran and who worked in, for, or with the military for 38 years. Not everyone can be successful in the military, or in the police force, or in the classroom, or on a production line, or as a surgeon. We all have our interests, our abilities, our motivations, and based on these and maybe other factors, we make choices that may increase or decrease our risk of bodily harm or death at work. Thirty-ish years ago, I knew some guys who were SEALs, and I was impressed with their achievement - not everyone volunteers for that training, and the vast majority who start don’t finish. But I’m not sure their contribution in uniform was any better than mine when I was training other technicians to maintain and repair naval aircraft, or years after I was out of uniform and my job involved designing tooling to work on navy aircraft and engines. I’ve known my share of veterans who were pretty worthless while on duty, and I expect any firefighter, cop, EMT, or other “heroic” profession can point at similar slugs, although I’d rather see people hold such professions in high esteem over actors or singers or jocks. And as a veteran, I’m very uncomfortable with someone saying “Thanks for your service” to me - they have no idea what I did or how well I did it, so it comes across as patronizing. Maybe it’s just me… ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/11 "2011-11-12T20:26:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The difference is that if there’s a forest fire, the loggers will be running away from the fire if they can. The firemen will be running towards the fire to rescue those people who can’t get away from it. I agree with how you put it here. Cops, soldiers and firefighters are willingly going into situations that most of us would run far away from. That does take some courage and willingness to sacrifice yourself that those of us who work normal office jobs don’t necessarily have. I freely admit that I would never want to be in a combat situation or have to try to rescue someone from a fire. Even though the odds of getting killed in a building collapse or shot by a scumbag criminal may be low for any individual firefighter or cop, I’m sure that it’s always in the back of their mind that they might be the unlucky one. If someone does end up getting killed, I think the amount of extra money and benefits they got for doing the job is not much consolation for not being there to see their kid grow up. At one point in his life my boyfriend was seriously working towards becoming a police officer, and to be honest with you I was relieved when he changed his mind about it because the idea that someday he might get killed on the job was quite frightening to me. I’m sure that it’s hard on the families of people in these jobs, knowing that every day they go to work is a day that there’s a real chance they might not come home. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/12 "2011-11-12T20:51:53Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > [Less so](http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0009.pdf) (pdf) then loggers, fishermen, roofers, aircraft pilots and engineers, farmers and ranchers, Mining Machine operators, refuse and recyclable materials collectors, truck drivers and industrial machine repairmen. > > So I don’t think you can really put the respect afforded police and firemen on assumption of physical risk necessary to perform their jobs. In the case of soldiers and policemen, the risk is not accidental; there are bad mofos out there with the intention of killing them. It takes a little more grit to get up and go to work knowing somebody might want you dead. Miners and fishermen don’t face that. Not all mortal risk is equal. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/13 "2011-11-12T20:55:44Z")
Police, firemen and medics? Absolutely. They literally take steps to protect us - in a tangible way - whenever they’re on duty. Military? Eh, I know it’s grossly unpopular to say so, but it’s nigh impossible to find exactly what benefit the average American at home gets from what our military does. Just like any other large group of people, there are great, upright, noble people in the military, and there are total dirtbags, and a whole lot of people who are somewhere in between the two extremes. ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/14 "2011-11-12T21:27:40Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Really? That happens a lot to firefighters? Yes. Is there any question about that? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/15 "2011-11-12T21:38:12Z")
> [@voguevixen](#): > > Yes. Is there any question about that? Yeah, there is. When do firefighters get “killed violently, out of nowhere”? I was mostly just nitpicking the phrasing, but if you want to get into it there were only [87 firefighter fatalities](http://www.usfa.fema.gov/fireservice/fatalities/statistics/history.shtm) on the job in 2010, and the leading cause of those fatalities was heart attack (44% on average). For comparison, there were [533 fatalities](http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.t03.htm) in “Management occupations” and 1,115 fatalities among “Transportation and material moving occupations” (I realize this doesn’t compare per capita, but still). ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/16 "2011-11-12T21:44:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In the case of soldiers and policemen, the risk is not accidental; there are bad mofos out there with the intention of killing them. It takes a little more grit to get up and go to work knowing somebody might want you dead. Miners and fishermen don’t face that. Not all mortal risk is equal. I dunno. I’m not sure getting shot by a drug dealer is any worse then getting ground up in a malfunctioning piece of recycling machinery. And in reality, about half of on the job fatalities for cops are due to traffic accidents, and a decent number beyond that is other types of accidents, not getting killed by bad mofos. While its certainly tragic when it happens, the number of cops suffering violent deaths on the job compared to the total number of cops is vanishingly small. That said, the public obviously has a perception of the risk undertaken by police as being much higher then that suffered by recycling machine repairmen. So just because the risk is small doesn’t necessarily mean that a mistaken view of the level of risk doesn’t lead to the publics admiration. After all, when a cop gets shot its usually pretty well covered by the news, while when a tree falls on a logger, I doubt anyone except immediate friends and family know about it. ---
**Author:** ![SeldomSeen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ba0ec/32.png) [@SeldomSeen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeldomSeen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/17 "2011-11-12T21:46:37Z")
\*\*Originally Posted by DCnDC \*\*" > [@](#): > > We salute the rank, not the man." - Richard Winters > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’ve never understood what that is supposed to mean, sound like nonsense to me. > > Nobody…and I mean nobody, gets automatic respect from me just because they hold a given position. > They’ll get the same civility and courtesy from me as would anyone. Titles and ranks are no indication of a man’s worth. Obligatory Edward Abbey quote here: > [@](#): > > “They told us in basic training to ‘salute the uniform, not the man’. Really? I’ll saluta a _man_ any time. I’ll be damned if I’ll salute a uniform.” Legend has it that Abbey was busted in rank twice for failing to salute an officer… ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/18 "2011-11-12T21:54:00Z")
> [@voguevixen](#): > > 😕 > > Yes. We respect them because at any given point in what might seem like an ordinary, mundane day they could be killed violently out of nowhere, for our protection. [Die for oil, sucker.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZkvtuwbMW4) ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/19 "2011-11-12T22:03:19Z")
> [@SeldomSeen](#): > > Legend has it that Abbey was busted in rank twice for failing to salute an officer… I’m not familiar with the man but I agree with his sentiment. “saluting” the uniform just smacks of unthinking obedience to me. Some people may feel comfortable doing that but I just couldn’t do it with a straight face. I’d be the worst soldier in the world. ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/20 "2011-11-12T22:41:41Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Yeah, there is. When do firefighters get “killed violently, out of nowhere”? I’m talking about stuff like ceilings or walls collapsing on them and stuff, not someone hacking them to death with a machete or something. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=2)