# The elevated social status of soldiers, police officers, and firemen, is it well deserved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719 "2011-11-12T19:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/201 "2011-11-16T02:58:01Z")
It is in society’s interest to give unusual rewards to persons who will take unusual physical risks in society’s defense, and respect is cheaper than money. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/202 "2011-11-16T03:00:20Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Why do I have to write a letter or “make my voice heard” before I express a position that is, ultimately, philosophical in nature? > > Bear in mind that your original contention was that those in the military were “doing something”, and that “doing something” is inherently good. No matter what you do. My position is that it can often be the case that doing nothing is better than doing something, especially if one has not carefully considered what “something” actually involves. > > I _know_ there will always be soldiers. I _know_ there will always be wars - because there will always be people prepared to fight those wars. But why do I have to be grateful to them, or excuse my ingratitude by writing letters to my MP? My original contention is that what I believe I am doing is contributing to the greater good - it’s something that I believe strongly enough in that I got involved. It was on the original statement made by…I believe Peter Morris, but I may be mistaken…that he doesn’t respect someone that wears a uniform but doesn’t “only to pay bills” or college. I was returning it by saying that it’s difficult to have respect for someone that calls out to people in uniform a challenge, but has not shown themselves to back it up. IOW, providing you were not the one that made the original statement, of not respecting those in uniform that only see it as a job, then my beef isn’t with you… Soldiers are human, falliable and may not always believe in everything their government hands down…but that is not the job. You don’t get to pick and choose. You only get to say, “I believe that my country is worth serving as a member of the military …” ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/203 "2011-11-16T03:33:28Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > My original contention is that what I believe I am doing is contributing to the greater good - it’s something that I believe strongly enough in that I got involved. It was on the original statement made by…I believe Peter Morris, but I may be mistaken…that he doesn’t respect someone that wears a uniform but doesn’t “only to pay bills” or college. I was returning it by saying that it’s difficult to have respect for someone that calls out to people in uniform a challenge, but has not shown themselves to back it up. > > IOW, providing you were not the one that made the original statement, of not respecting those in uniform that only see it as a job, then my beef isn’t with you… > > Soldiers are human, falliable and may not always believe in everything their government hands down…but that is not the job. You don’t get to pick and choose. You only get to say, “I believe that my country is worth serving as a member of the military …” Well sure, and I’m not going to attempt to argue on behalf of **Peter Morris**. I’m sympathetic to his arguments, I guess, but so what? In practical terms I do indeed direct my complaints towards the governments that sent soldiers to danger for no good reason. But that wasn’t my point. My point was that I do not believe there is inherent value in joining the armed forces. Yes, we need hired muscle because everyone else has hired muscle - I accept that. I still don’t particularly respect _anyone’s_ hired muscle. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/204 "2011-11-16T05:12:35Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’ll make this very simple for you. > > 1. People who fought Hitler because they oppose Hitler = heroes. Bullshit. They were soldiers. No more, no less. People who, as a default position, deserve our gratitude, but nothing more. No doubt some of them proved themselves to be heroes, but not just because they were a uniform. Please do not perpetuate this nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/205 "2011-11-16T05:25:52Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Do you really think that most of the members of the 101st Airborne had some well thought-out dislike for Hitler prior to the War? I don’t think we’ll ever know just how many felt that way. I’m sure some fought simply because they had to (i.e., were drafted, yet really wished they hadn’t been). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/206 "2011-11-16T06:53:31Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I don’t think we’ll ever know just how many felt that way. I’m sure some fought simply because they had to (i.e., were drafted, yet really wished they hadn’t been). Actually, I think virtually all if not all were volunteers. It was an elite unit guaranteed to see combat. Also, Stephen Ambrose interviewed many who freely said one of the reasons they signed up was because it paid an extra “fifty bucks a month” which would certainly mean they should be condemned as “thugs” using Peter Morris’ logic. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/207 "2011-11-16T07:04:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, I think virtually all if not all were volunteers. OK, I didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/208 "2011-11-16T07:42:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This statement shows really dramatic ignorance of the soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are soldiers fight there “for salary” but they’re not part of the US military they’re called private contractors. > > Most people fighting over there do so because they think it’s their duty and believe in the cause. > > In fact, one of the more dramatic changes the military has gone through since 911, is the dramatic change in who joins. > > The army that fought in Desert Storm was roughly one third black or Latino. That’s no longer true. Similarly, the percentage of soldiers from poor or deprived backgrounds has declined. > > The percentage of the enlisted force that’s white and or middle class has dramatically increased. > > There was a time when most of the people who joined did so just to pay for college or for job training, but that’s less and less true, particularly of those who join the Army or the Marines in contrast to the Navy or the Air Force. Of course more middle class kids are joining. College tuitions are grossly outpacing inflation. Yesterdays poor needed the military to go to college. Many of todays middle class do as well. Though I’ve no doubt the monstrous amount of hero worship has had an effect on the young men and women.. They would have been absolutely inundated with that sort of talk right when they were kids. What better way to honor these brave heroes than to serve the same cause! Or so the mind of a child works. > [@Poysyn](#): > > “I believe that my country is worth serving as a member of the military …” You also get to say “I believe the compensation, training, and benefits this employer is offering is an acceptable trade for my time and labors.” I’d say risk, but no 18 year old really thinks about that until its too late. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/209 "2011-11-16T07:51:18Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > I, personally, do not expect any respect at all, mostly because I’m an asshole. What I DO expect, is not to be DISrespected. Tooth, you make UAV stuff, I love you for that. Surveillance from Ravens has saved my ass more than once. Getting a Predator in sector had eased my fear a few times. I LOVE that shit. > > I don’t think people should get all clap-happy or that we DESERVE anything more than the shitty pay and good healthcare we get. I also don’t think that we DESERVE to be frowned at and shit on. > > The part about breaking bones is just me. They don’t teach us any of that stuff in EMT school. > I see you conveniently left out the part where I mentioned that I would crawl into a burning car to save you. > > Of course there was war 100million years ago, they just didn’t use tanks. Ants go to war. Chimps go to war. War is not a human invention. > > And of course I threatened people who spit on me. What would you do if I spit on you? Cower? Shoot me? Spit back? Call the cops? All four? I have been trained and conditioned to look at a dangerous situation invoving armed resistance and walk into with a small doctors office on my back. I ain’t gonna take shit, or spit, from anyone. I’d slap my mom if she spit on me. Per chance, did you watch many John Wayne movies as a child? ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/210 "2011-11-16T09:02:40Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > Per chance, did you watch many John Wayne movies as a child? Actually, no. Lots of documentaries about space and history and general science, really. I was a giant hippie until about a year before I joined up. Also though, I didn’t grow up with my mom. She was busy raising her other kids until I was nine. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/211 "2011-11-16T09:06:30Z")
> [@CutterJohn](#): > > Of course more middle class kids are joining. College tuitions are grossly outpacing inflation. Yesterdays poor needed the military to go to college. Many of todays middle class do as well. > > Though I’ve no doubt the monstrous amount of hero worship has had an effect on the young men and women.. They would have been absolutely inundated with that sort of talk right when they were kids. What better way to honor these brave heroes than to serve the same cause! Or so the mind of a child works. > > You also get to say “I believe the compensation, training, and benefits this employer is offering is an acceptable trade for my time and labors.” > > I’d say risk, but no 18 year old really thinks about that until its too late. 1. not everyone who joins is 18. 2. The salary and benefits are NOT a good trade. The only reason to do it is because you believe it. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/212 "2011-11-16T09:09:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Actually, I think virtually all if not all were volunteers. > > It was an elite unit guaranteed to see combat. > > Also, Stephen Ambrose interviewed many who freely said one of the reasons they signed up was because it paid an extra “fifty bucks a month” which would certainly mean they should be condemned as “thugs” using Peter Morris’ logic. Many would have been drafted for the war, yes, but they volunteered for Airborne duty. Airborne is still a voluntary duty. Even after you join, they can’t just send you to Airborne school. They can send you to an airborne unit, but can’t make you jump. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/213 "2011-11-16T09:10:22Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Many would have been drafted for the war, yes, but they volunteered for Airborne duty. Airborne is still a voluntary duty. Even after you join, they can’t just send you to Airborne school. They can send you to an airborne unit, but can’t make you jump. And its $150 today… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/214 "2011-11-16T15:16:00Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > 1. not everyone who joins is 18. > 2. The salary and benefits are NOT a good trade. The only reason to do it is because you believe it. This is true. I remember once figuring out what i was making during basic training per hour…it was alarming. I have a child at home - my time with her is precious and important to me, and the fact that I chose to work in uniform means that I accept a certain risk. I don’t have a death wish, or any desire to leave her without a mom, but I think what I do is important. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/215 "2011-11-16T17:02:26Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > 1. The salary and benefits are NOT a good trade. The only reason to do it is because you believe it. Considering that everything that you _need_ is provided for you, it’s a pretty good trade. > [@Poysyn](#): > > This is true. I remember once figuring out what i was making during basic training per hour…it was alarming. Why was it alarming? Because you’re ‘working’ 24 hours a day during basic? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/216 "2011-11-16T17:14:11Z")
In times of great unemployment, the military is sometimes the only option a young person looking for a start in life may have. To assume it is some patriotic drive that makes people soldiers, ignores how often courts have made it or jail the choices. It ignores desperately poor people who see it as a place to get warm and be fed. There are lots of reasons people join the service. Some join because their family has a history of military service. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/217 "2011-11-16T18:47:12Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Why was it alarming? Because you’re ‘working’ 24 hours a day during basic? Yes. Also because it was something that occurred to the group of us after patrolling for a few hours and digging our trenches. For me anyway, this job is about more than money, but I am well aware that not everyone has that view. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/218 "2011-11-16T19:03:39Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > In times of great unemployment, the military is sometimes the only option a young person looking for a start in life may have. To assume it is some patriotic drive that makes people soldiers, ignores how often\*\* courts have made it or jail the choices. \*\* Does this really still happen? ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/219 "2011-11-16T19:55:00Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Considering that everything that you _need_ is provided for you, it’s a pretty good trade. > > Why was it alarming? Because you’re ‘working’ 24 hours a day during basic? Both of these comments show an ignorance of military life. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/220 "2011-11-16T19:57:08Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Does this really still happen? No. Since the draft ended, in America anyway, it has been all volunteer, and if the military gets wind you may have been coerced, you can’t join. It’s one if the forms you sign. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=12)