# The elevated social status of soldiers, police officers, and firemen, is it well deserved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719 "2011-11-12T19:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/41 "2011-11-13T02:25:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > It’s a slogan. You just quote the words, without ever thinking about what they mean. > > I presume you are American. Many American soldiers are currently fighting in either Iraq or Afghanistan. > > Please explain to me how that makes your fellow countrymen safer. I just quote them without thinking? If you think I said the Oath of Enlistment without thinking about it, you are (edit) Of course I know what it means. That particular section is talking about the constitution. I swore to defend the set of values represented in that document. From anyone who threatens it, or my country. I swore to uphold it in my own life, when I said the words “true faith, and allegiance to the same”. I swore to obey the commands I am given, should they be lawful. I gave it lots of thought. I wasn’t 18 when I enlisted, and it wasn’t my first job. It wasn’t my first time out of the country, and it wasn’t the “default” thing to do in my family. Just because someone decides to join the military, of any country, does not automagically make them an asshole. I am, but I was before I joined up. To say that most of them, who may or may not be aware of the horrible error of the policies of their respective government, are not worthy of a little respect above, say, a gas station clerk, is ignorance. Those soldiers have volunteered to be the first ones shot at, should someone decide to fuck your country up. Since I AM, in fact, an American soldier, I know, from history, if nothing else, that I am just as likely to get somewhere to die for YOUR ass as for my own country. Probably more so, since the idiots in my administration seem to enjoy "interventions ". But like I said before, I just do it, I don’t make the big decisions. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/42 "2011-11-13T02:26:27Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Do you know what a slogan is? Are you suggesting that slogans and Oaths are the same? Do you swear a slogan when testifying in court? Does McDonald’s end commercials with an oath? Accio clue, kid. > > The “em” is my joes, which is a slang term for “my soldiers”. I’m keeping them alive cause I’m a medic. > > What do you mean, who exactly? That’s kind of a dumb question. At the moment, nobody, cause I’m sitting on my couch with my wife and kids. In the past it was terrorist assholes who want nothing more than Americans to die, and in the future, maybe Iran’s Idiot Guard, I don’t know. All enemies, foreign, and domestic. Pretty simple. You want a slogan, it’s this: > > Mine is not to answer why, mine is but to do and die. Thanks for the clarification about 'ems. I didn’t know that. So it seems to me that you fight whoever you’re told to fight - which is right, of course, because the US military is civilian controlled, so clearly it’s not your job to decide who you should fight. But I remain unconvinced that this approach (“I’ll kill whoever they tell me to kill, without giving the matter any thought”) is ultimately one that we should admire. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/43 "2011-11-13T02:36:03Z")
David Brooks wrote about this in a Veteran’s Day [column](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/opinion/the-inequality-map.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper) under “vocation inequality”. I’d include surgeons with soldiers, police officers, and firemen. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/44 "2011-11-13T02:41:52Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Those soldiers have volunteered to be the first ones shot at, should someone decide to fuck your country up. See, that’s the whole point. There are people who want to fuck my country up. Who will they hire to do it? Soldiers, that’s who. We have to hire soldiers to defend against their soldiers. Soldiers only ever protect me against other soldiers. If there were no soldiers, I’d be safer. That’s why I don’t respect soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/45 "2011-11-13T03:06:28Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > See, that’s the whole point. > > There are people who want to fuck my country up. > > Who will they hire to do it? Soldiers, that’s who. > > We have to hire soldiers to defend against their soldiers. > > Soldiers only ever protect me against other soldiers. > > If there were no soldiers, I’d be safer. > > That’s why I don’t respect soldiers. If there were no death, you’d be safer. You seriously decided not to respect soldiers because of a daydream you have? Lol! ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/46 "2011-11-13T03:10:10Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#): > > Police, firemen and medics? Absolutely. They literally take steps to protect us - in a tangible way - whenever they’re on duty. Agreed. Disclaimer: My mom is a paramedic and my brother is a volunteer firefighter in the foothills region. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/47 "2011-11-13T03:24:58Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > If there were no soldiers, I’d be safer. > > That’s why I don’t respect soldiers. You might think about starting a thread in Great Debates: Resolved, if there were no soldiers, the world would be a safer place. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/48 "2011-11-13T03:34:22Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > If there were no death, you’d be safer. You seriously decided not to respect soldiers because of a daydream you have? Lol! The bad guys hire thugs. The thugs threaten us. That means that we too must hire thugs to protect us against their thugs. That is a reality. I can’t change it. It doesn’t mean that the thugs we hire are worth my respect. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/49 "2011-11-13T03:42:05Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The bad guys hire thugs. The thugs threaten us. > > That means that we too must hire thugs to protect us against their thugs. > > That is a reality. I can’t change it. > > It doesn’t mean that the thugs we hire are worth my respect. Thugs. Ahhh. I see now. How could I have been so blind? Oh well. Doesn’t matter, I’ll still protect your rights to life, liberty, and moronic statements if I’m ever called to. You’re welcome. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/50 "2011-11-13T04:00:13Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Thugs. Ahhh. I see now. How could I have been so blind? > > Oh well. Doesn’t matter, I’ll still protect your rights to life, liberty, and moronic statements if I’m ever called to. You’re welcome. 😉 You won’t ever be called on to do that, though. Or at least, the chances seem pretty remote. It’s much more likely you’ll be called on to further the political and foreign policy goals of whatever administration happens to be in charge. And I know that doesn’t sound so impressive, but it is the most likely outcome of anyone’s military service. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/51 "2011-11-13T04:03:56Z")
Explain how you are protecting me. You claim to be an Iraq veteran. Exp-lain to me how the Iraq war protects me. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/52 "2011-11-13T04:17:00Z")
In response to the OP, I guess my view is this: Soldiers (military in general). We respect them because, well, they take the fall for our irrational actions. If we didn’t have a bunch of guys who were prepared to say “Invade Iraq? For no good reason? You got it, Sir!” then the policies of that government couldn’t possibly have been implemented. It takes a lot of effort to create such an organisation, to have this group of people who will risk their own lives simply because they’re told to. And they do it for us, really, they do. We elect the clowns who send them off on pointless missions, we’re responsible for the fact that they die for no good reason. What else can we do but respect them? We respect them in every way we can. Well, except for not sending them off to do this stuff in the first place but come on, we are Serious people. Police. Well, we respect them because they keep us safe at some risk to themselves. And because we granted their power: they’re civilians, and we’d hate to think that we’d granted power to a bunch of egomaniacs and power-trippers. So we ignore their egregious mistakes because, well, surely we, clever as we are, would never give power to such crazy people. It must be us that are wrong. Firefighters. Well, they save people from burning buildings and stuff. Hard to think of a downside here. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/53 "2011-11-13T04:18:24Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > You won’t ever be called on to do that, though. Or at least, the chances seem pretty remote. It’s much more likely you’ll be called on to further the political and foreign policy goals of whatever administration happens to be in charge. > > And I know that doesn’t sound so impressive, but it is the most likely outcome of anyone’s military service. Yes, it is the most likely outcome, and that sucks. It’s also not the point. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/54 "2011-11-13T04:20:35Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Explain how you are protecting me. > > You claim to be an Iraq veteran. > > Exp-lain to me how the Iraq war protects me. I actually went twice. 😉 Also, it probably doesn’t protect you, but not everything is about you, either. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/55 "2011-11-13T04:23:03Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > In response to the OP, I guess my view is this: > > Soldiers (military in general). We respect them because, well, they take the fall for our irrational actions. If we didn’t have a bunch of guys who were prepared to say “Invade Iraq? For no good reason? You got it, Sir!” then the policies of that government couldn’t possibly have been implemented. It takes a lot of effort to create such an organisation, to have this group of people who will risk their own lives simply because they’re told to. > > And they do it for us, really, they do. We elect the clowns who send them off on pointless missions, we’re responsible for the fact that they die for no good reason. What else can we do but respect them? We respect them in every way we can. Well, except for not sending them off to do this stuff in the first place but come on, we are Serious people. > > Police. Well, we respect them because they keep us safe at some risk to themselves. And because we granted their power: they’re civilians, and we’d hate to think that we’d granted power to a bunch of egomaniacs and power-trippers. So we ignore their egregious mistakes because, well, surely we, clever as we are, would never give power to such crazy people. It must be us that are wrong. > > Firefighters. Well, they save people from burning buildings and stuff. Hard to think of a downside here. Pretty good view. That’s about the way I look at it. I only do what I’m asked to. If someone asks me to do something, and then wants to shit on me for doing it, well, that’s just rude. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/56 "2011-11-13T04:26:25Z")
Essentially the attitude of **Yodoc** and his ilk is just a fetishism of the military; it’s a form of machismo by proxy justified by rationalising people who do a job for pay as steely-eyed lantern-jawed defenders of right. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/57 "2011-11-13T04:27:30Z")
> [@Yodoc](#): > > Yes, it is the most likely outcome, and that sucks. It’s also not the point. It is the point. It’s the most important point of all. Anyone fighting in a war that they don’t actually believe in is a prostitute. You claim to have been in the Iraq war. If you want respect, then explain why the war is justified. Actually, I don’t even believe your claims. You have the vocabulary and posting style of a 13 year old. I think that you aren’t really a soldier at all, but you want to be one when you grow up. Am I right? ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/58 "2011-11-13T04:43:16Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > … > > Actually, I don’t even believe your claims. You have the vocabulary and posting style of a 13 year old. I think that you aren’t really a soldier at all, but you want to be one when you grow up. > > Am I right? Oh, come on. I don’t care if you respect me or think I am a prostitute. I really don’t care about your opinion at all, but even you are better than stooping to this level. I know you have one act, and this ain’t it. Please do better. Thanks, SFC Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/59 "2011-11-13T04:47:34Z")
Do I know you? Have I said anything about you? What are you talking about, exactly? What is this “one act” that you imagine I have? Is this supposed to be some sort of insult, cause I don’t even understand it. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/60 "2011-11-13T04:48:28Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Pretty good view. That’s about the way I look at it. I only do what I’m asked to. If someone asks me to do something, and then wants to shit on me for doing it, well, that’s just rude. Well, sure. But unlike some of your colleagues in the past, you had a choice. You could have chosen not to join the military, unlike, say, many Vietnam vets. So to a large extent, you are responsible for your own actions. It’s been obvious for decades now that the US military does not do much to protect the US itself - at least not in the sense most people would understand the term. Anyone who signs up should know this. Now we have to venerate you because you willingly did the stupid crap we asked you to do? I don’t buy this. We are free agents and could have decided not to ask you to do it. You are a free agent and could have chosen not to sign up. So no, I don’t blame you for doing the job you signed up for - it’s what we all do. But I do think other professions deserve more respect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=4)