# The elevated social status of soldiers, police officers, and firemen, is it well deserved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719 "2011-11-12T19:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/141 "2011-11-15T04:40:31Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I can appreciate the sentiment so far. If you reinlist, knowing you might be sent somewhere that you will question the morality of your mere presence as a soldier, well I have less of an opinion. you may not have thought that once, and that’s ok by me, I’ve done similar…but, you’re not fighting for “me” if you reenlist under those conditions. Yeah, it’ll be different if China has invaded nearly all the way to Colorado and everybody is reenlisting. There wouldn’t be doubt there; but further expansion of American Imperialism being Kosher with you, after you’ve expressed a defense of “I didn’t know where I’d be sent,” would make you swine to me. And of course being drafted is another matter too, but that’s another OP. Can we assume then you condemned British soldiers who fought in defense of the British Empire in the Pacific during WWII then and considered them “swine”? That was a far more straightforward defense of “imperialism” than anything that’s occurring in either Afghanistan or Iraq. Similarly, since the US wasn’t being “invaded nearly all the way to Colorado” by Germany during WWII, can we assume you condemned as “swine” the American soldiers who hit the beach at Normandy. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/142 "2011-11-15T04:43:16Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Not particularly. I am anti-military and unapologetic about it, and part of that is calling what they do what it is: killing people. Fair enough. I have considerably more respect for people who are at least intellectually consistent and was quite saddened by the immense hypocrisy Peter showed earlier when he tried to make distinctions between Americans fighting against Nazi Germany and those fighting against Al Quaeda. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/143 "2011-11-15T04:52:16Z")
To clarify I am against ALL militaries everywhere, not just the U.S. military (though I consider it the worst since it is the most wasteful and kills the greatest number of people for the least good reasons). We have enough technology as-is to provide for the entire world to live peacefully should resources be spread out efficiently. Anyway, I saw the author of the book you claim was debunked on IIRC, CNN, and the panelist debating him was frothing at the mouth about how “EVERYONE KNOWS OUR BOYS RETURNED HOME AND GOT SPIT ON!” without a single actual reference to it happening. And even if it DID happen a handful of times, that doesn’t reflect Vietnam vets’ experience returning home at large, and secondly from quick googling 2.5million troops were in Vietnam. It is literally impossible I would bet to get ANY group that big and have none of them get spit on for say, a ten year period starting from any date. For the myth to be true, you would have to figure out how many people in general get spit on for the discussed time period, and compare it to Vietnam War Veterans, and see if it is higher to a statistically significant degree. I sincerely doubt that it is considering how hard it is for people to come up with any contemporary reportings of it happening, only third hand knowlege and emotional appeals, and also because spitting on someone who just returned from killing people in the jungles who probably has PTSD isn’t very good for your health. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/144 "2011-11-15T05:11:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Can we assume then you condemned British soldiers who fought in defense of the British Empire in the Pacific during WWII then and considered them “swine”? > > That was a far more straightforward defense of “imperialism” than anything that’s occurring in either Afghanistan or Iraq. > > Similarly, since the US wasn’t being “invaded nearly all the way to Colorado” by Germany during WWII, can we assume you condemned as “swine” the American soldiers who hit the beach at Normandy. If they sign up a second time, after personally acknowledging that they had just unjustly fought, with no draft compulsion to influence them, then, yes, I would consider them to have a severe moral failure. I mean, if you say it yourself that it was unjust, but it’s not your fault because you couldn’t pick whether your service was just or unjust, well, I’ll buy that out of your naivete, concerning one enlistment, but…it only goes so far. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/145 "2011-11-15T05:18:57Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > “We salute the rank, not the man.” - Richard Winters > > We respect them because their job carries a realistic _potential_ for self-sacrifice and a heavy dose of highly unpleasant duties, but of course any further level of regard (or not) will be determined on an individual basis. When you are part of a unit that is put at hazard it is incredibly important for everyone involved to respect the system in place because anything else will get your friends hurt. As a civilian I am not part of that system so those rules do not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/146 "2011-11-15T07:36:11Z")
> [@David42](#): > > If they sign up a second time, after personally acknowledging that they had just unjustly fought, with no draft compulsion to influence them, then, yes, I would consider them to have a severe moral failure. I mean, if you say it yourself that it was unjust, but it’s not your fault because you couldn’t pick whether your service was just or unjust, well, I’ll buy that out of your naivete, concerning one enlistment, but…it only goes so far. I’m a bit confused by your reference to the “they” when responding to my post. I mentioned British soldiers fighting in the Pacific in World War II in defense and support of British imperialism and their American counterparts who in WWII attacked a country(Germany) which was no threat to them. I assumed you were intellectually consistent and condemned them for fighting for imperialism. However you’re talking about them “signing up a second time”. They didn’t have the Tour system set up in WWII. It wasn’t like the Vietnam War. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/147 "2011-11-15T08:07:10Z")
1. Germany was sinking American merchant vessels. That seems threat-ish. 2. Morals are not objective. The great thing about that means that I don’t have to care about ignorant ravings about wars I fought in. 3. The bad thing about the fact that morals are subjective is that we are thus always going to have war. When people start talking about moral superiority, that’s when it gets real ugly. For instance, sectarian killings have killed more Iraqis than Americans have. 4. I want to go to Canada, but live so very far away. ☹ 5. I like my country. I believe it is broken, and needs fixed. We’re having a few bad decades. We used to be good friends to half the world, remember those times? Yeah, those were the days… 6. Can you imagine if everyone was ignorant enough to think they know things for sure instead of remembering that they could be wrong? Damn, what a horrible place that would be. Maybe. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/148 "2011-11-15T08:28:51Z")
As an Aussie who attended a military high-school in the US South when I was a teenager in the late 1980s, I have to say that I found the whole culture of the place quite bizarre. Calling adults “Sir” and “Ma’am” seemed to be the norm when I was living in Savannah, GA. I didn’t feel comfortable doing that, so I always responded to my teachers in exactly the same way I would have done back home. “Yes” instead of “Yes, Sir”. “No” instead of “No, Ma’am”. My teachers seemed to think that that was a bit odd, but they seemingly never took any real exception to the way I behaved. I think I got a bit of leeway because I was a foreigner and consistently top of the class. But I did find it quite odd that my American-born classmates were so incredibly deferential to the teachers. Sure, some of those teachers were Vietnam vets, but some of my teachers at home were vets, too, and I’d never been required to call them “Sir”. Something about that sense of hierarchy just rubbed wrong with me, so I didn’t abide by it. /Being required to swear a “Pledge of Allegiance” every morning in home-room was another story altogether. That was really weird… Technically I was a US Army JROTC cadet, but my heart was far from in it. I’d had to do the same thing previously every morning as a third-grader living in the Washington DC area, where I’d learned that the teacher would notice if you only mouthed the words, but I really didn’t want to participate in that kind of ritual. It felt like being North Korean. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/149 "2011-11-15T08:35:39Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > As an Aussie who attended a military high-school in the US South when I was a teenager in the late 1980s, I have to say that I found the whole culture of the place quite bizarre. > > Calling adults “Sir” and “Ma’am” seemed to be the norm when I was living in Savannah, GA. I didn’t feel comfortable doing that, so I always responded to my teachers in exactly the same way I would have done back home. > > “Yes” instead of “Yes, Sir”. “No” instead of “No, Ma’am”. My teachers seemed to think that that was a bit odd, but they seemingly never took any real exception to the way I behaved. I think I got a bit of leeway because I was a foreigner and consistently top of the class. > > But I did find it quite odd that my American-born classmates were so incredibly deferential to the teachers. Sure, some of those teachers were Vietnam vets, but some of my teachers at home were vets, too, and I’d never been required to call them “Sir”. Something about that sense of hierarchy just rubbed wrong with me, so I didn’t abide by it. > > /Being required to swear a “Pledge of Allegiance” every morning in home-room was another story altogether. That was really weird… Technically I was a US Army JROTC cadet, but my heart was far from in it. I’d had to do the same thing previously every morning as a third-grader living in the Washington DC area, where I’d learned that the teacher would notice if you only mouthed the words, but I really didn’t want to participate in that kind of ritual. It felt like being North Korean. I assume you are at least 25? To be fair, at that time, those actions were common in the whole country at the time. Calling adults sir and ma’am is common in the south, and I use it for just about anyone my age or older, whom I am not familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/150 "2011-11-15T09:16:45Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Well, I AM a combat medic, I DID go Iraq. You got me on the justified thing. I was hoping to go to Afghanistan, but they don’t give us that choice. As far as my reasons… over 3000 of them. I knew as soon as the towers came down that I was going to join. I thought I would wait until after college, but I got poor, so went early. > > Also, you talk alot about soldiers and killing people… here’s a little info for you… > > My last deployment lasted 12 months. In that time, my company, 136 paratroopers, killed three people. One was a soldier which killed himself, one rushed our gate with a vest on, and one stabbed my interpreter half to death at a meeting. Heh. I knew as soon as the towers came down I definitely wasn’t reenlisting, since we were going to be sucked into yet another war. I had no issues being paid to protect the country, or to protect another country. Heck, I can even live with being a tool for intimidation. But damned if I was going to sit there and be a part of bombing a sovereign nation for some independent terrorist attacks. I, personally, was quite annoyed with the hero worship after 9/11. I got paid a decent wage to do a job. I didn’t do it to protect anyones freedoms or make sure the loved ones back home are sleeping safe and cozy in there beds.. Two wide oceans and two friendly neighbors on the borders already take most of the effort out of that, and the remaining threats are threats a military is woefully inadequate at defending against. I did the job I was hired to do because that was the agreement my employer and I reached. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/151 "2011-11-15T09:29:53Z")
I’ve got no problem bombing shit-bag countries that protect “individual” terrorists. You can’t just say “yeah, they’re here. No, you can’t have them.” Fuck that. If Fred Phelps blows up China, and the US won’t hand him over, I fully expect them to invade. Oceans didn’t stop the attacks the first time, it would be foolhardy to assume they’d get the next one… ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/152 "2011-11-15T09:41:28Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > The part about breaking bones is just me. They don’t teach us any of that stuff in EMT school. Perhaps because it’s both illegal and highly immoral. It’s thuggish behavior; it’s not the way a civilized adult behaves. You get your feelings hurt and a bit of dribble on you? That sucks. You beat a guy to a pulp in response? That’s insane! What a dangerous lack of emotional control and sense of proportion… I hope this is just a load of bullshit machismo and not the way you would actually behave were the situation ever to actually occur. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/153 "2011-11-15T09:47:59Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > What would you do if I spit on you? Cower? Shoot me? Spit back? Call the cops? All four? I’d steam about it and walk away. I have that ability. I admire it in others. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/154 "2011-11-15T09:56:49Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > I didn’t get to pick which place I went, dude. Yes you do, of course you do. Unless you are physically dragged to particular theatre you can refuse if you believe the conflict is unjustified and don’t wish to contribute to it. At the risk of Godwinising (and it isn’t a risk it’s a certainty) simply obeying orders isn’t a get-out clause for you. You are not at physical risk from refusal, merely a legal sanction, perhaps some jail time and loss of your job. It isn’t a consequence-free decision but then very few things are. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/155 "2011-11-15T15:12:25Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > OK, so you get to join the military and follow orders, and that means you’ve made your contribution. Really? That’s it? I was under the impression they were getting shot at. One of us is misinformed. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/156 "2011-11-15T15:16:44Z")
most military jobs have very little chance of being shot at. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/157 "2011-11-15T16:47:04Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > As an Aussie who attended a military high-school in the US South when I was a teenager in the late 1980s, I have to say that I found the whole culture of the place quite bizarre. To be fair, those of us in the Northern states also find their culture bizarre. Much of The South has it’s roots in a sort of aggrarian land-owning Olde Money aristocracy mindset that pre-dates the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/158 "2011-11-15T17:17:52Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > OK, so you get to join the military and follow orders, and that means you’ve made your contribution. But in order to make mine, I have to get into politics, engage in complex debates, raise whatever cash is needed and so on. And until I do so, I can’t express my opinion on those who sign up to kill - with no idea who they might be asked to kill and why, and with no say in the matter? > > No, it’s much more useful for me to simply refuse to participate. I’ll make my contribution in other ways, thank you very much. I don’t recall saying you had to actuall run or campaign in politics, but get involved. That can mean writing a letter, volunteering or doing almost anything to get your voice heard. Otherwise it’s really just recreational outrage. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/159 "2011-11-15T17:18:27Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Perhaps because it’s both illegal and highly immoral. It’s thuggish behavior; it’s not the way a civilized adult behaves. > > You get your feelings hurt and a bit of dribble on you? That sucks. You beat a guy to a pulp in response? That’s insane! What a dangerous lack of emotional control and sense of proportion… > > I hope this is just a load of bullshit machismo and not the way you would actually behave were the situation ever to actually occur. Well, not every bone, no. But yes, I would definitely punch someone in the face for spitting on me. It’s not an over reaction. It’s teaching s lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/160 "2011-11-15T17:22:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > most military jobs have very little chance of being shot at. The chance is higher than you’d think. The most recent war in Afghanistan is my example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=9)