# The elevated social status of soldiers, police officers, and firemen, is it well deserved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719 "2011-11-12T19:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/161 "2011-11-15T17:22:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Yes you do, of course you do. Unless you are physically dragged to particular theatre you can refuse if you believe the conflict is unjustified and don’t wish to contribute to it. > > At the risk of Godwinising (and it isn’t a risk it’s a certainty) simply obeying orders isn’t a get-out clause for you. You are not at physical risk from refusal, merely a legal sanction, perhaps some jail time and loss of your job. It isn’t a consequence-free decision but then very few things are. Well, sure. I guess if you wanna get that broad about it: When I joined up in 2006, we were already rebuilding. I had no part in the invasion, and regardless of how I felt about the original impetus of war, we had then a responsibility to rebuild, so yeah. I supported THAT mission, at least more than I supported going to jail and never having a good job again. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/162 "2011-11-15T17:40:14Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > most military jobs have very little chance of being shot at. True, most JOBS have little chance of getting shot at. The real danger comes from mortar attacks and IEDs. The most populous job in the US military, though, is infantry. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/163 "2011-11-15T18:11:46Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > The chance is higher than you’d think. The most recent war in Afghanistan is my example. What percentage of Canada’s current military have ever been to Afghanistan? The way I heard it, most people in the military have office jobs in their own country, with negligible chance that they will ever be anywhere near the fighting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/164 "2011-11-15T18:24:41Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What percentage of Canada’s current military have ever been to Afghanistan? > > The way I heard it, most people in the military have office jobs in their own country, with negligible chance that they will ever be anywhere near the fighting. Cite, please? ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/165 "2011-11-15T18:25:12Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What percentage of Canada’s current military have ever been to Afghanistan? > > The way I heard it, most people in the military have office jobs in their own country, with negligible chance that they will ever be anywhere near the fighting. About 55,000 ish total deployments, but this does not consider multiple tours. Currently, we have about 950 people in Kabul in a primarily mentoring/training role. The CF has about 60,000 members in the Regular Force and about 20,000 in the Primary Reserve Force. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/166 "2011-11-15T18:28:21Z")
I do have a higher regard for these types than for others. At the risk of merely repeating others - when you run out, they run in. Not to lessen other professions but how can you not have a little more respect (or regard or whatever yo want to call it) for someone who knowingly puts his or her own life in jeopardy to help you at a time when are unable or unwilling to do so yourself? ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/167 "2011-11-15T18:31:23Z")
Because they don’t believe that they are being helped. There’s at least one here who thinks I’m morally deficient for being in the us army, despite being a medic. My whole mission is helping folks, but that doesn’t matter, because Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/168 "2011-11-15T18:51:57Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Who in Iraq was threatening us? Uh, I already answered that, or can’t you read? Nobody. Iraq is a TOTALLY unjustified war. I didn’t get to pick which place I went, dude. See, this is an argument frequently advanced by soldiers, and it’s always wrong, unless they were conscripted. Of COURSE you chose where you went, dude. You enlisted some time after the start of the war. You knew when you signed the contract that the war was going on, and that you might be sent to it. You have made a positive choice to be part of it. And don’t you get a chance every couple of years to renew your contract, or leave? If you don’t like the Iraq war, you have had a chance to leave it, without penalty, without going to prison. I make an exception in the case of conscripts. Someone who was given the choice of Viet Nam or prison can tell me that he was forced to go, against his will. You can’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/169 "2011-11-15T19:15:02Z")
I haven’t read the thread, but I’ll offer an answer to the OP. While I think they deserve a certain amount of respect by default, I think it’s been blown out of proportion. The policeman, fireman, soldier, have been idealized, than idolized. What I mean is that there has been tendency to view each of them as if you’re viewing the very, very best of them. This can be seen with the loose and cavalier use of the term “heroes” when these groups are referred to. The fact of the matter is that a tiny fraction of them are heroes, meaning that only a tiny fraction of them have ever been put into a situation where heroics were called upon (thank goodness) and then rose to the occasion. Most of these guys go about there jobs rather routinely, with nothing extraordinary happening to them. Which is a good thing. so while they may do their jobs extremely well and show bravery and professionalism, they’re not all heroes. Also, there are a good number of guys in any of these groups who are assholes. Just like the assholes you find in any occupation. Even the cops know that some of their fellow cops are assholes. Same with soldiers and firemen. So, while I give them a default amount of respect, I’m very slow to idolize them. Or idealize them. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/170 "2011-11-15T19:17:11Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I make an exception in the case of conscripts. Someone who was given the choice of Viet Nam or prison can tell me that he was forced to go, against his will. You can’t say that. So then you’d condemn the soldiers who hit the beaches at Normandy who were volunteers as “thugs” but not the soldiers drafted to fight in Vietnam? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/171 "2011-11-15T19:23:22Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Well, not every bone, no. But yes, I would definitely punch someone in the face for spitting on me. It’s not an over reaction. It’s teaching s lesson. “Teaching a lesson” through the instigation of violence is a brutish overreaction. Yell, curse, do whatever you need to do short of battery, and walk away. Even assholes deserve not to get punched in the face, except as necessary for self-defense (which post-spitting “education” is not). ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/172 "2011-11-15T19:27:40Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > “Teaching a lesson” through the instigation of violence is a brutish overreaction. Yell, curse, do whatever you need to do short of battery, and walk away. Spitting is a physical attack. If I were on a jury and the spitter got smashed in the face with a two-by-four by his target and lost all his teeth, I’d let the guy off. I’d agree with you as far as fighting words with words, but if you escalate it to physical confrontation, you ceded the high ground to the other person. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/173 "2011-11-15T19:30:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you’d condemn the soldiers who hit the beaches at Normandy who were volunteers as “thugs” No I wouldn’t. You keep claiming I said this. Try to understand that it is your own fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/174 "2011-11-15T19:33:20Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Because they don’t believe that they are being helped. There’s at least one here who thinks I’m morally deficient for being in the us army, despite being a medic. My whole mission is helping folks, but that doesn’t matter, because Iraq. You have been invited to explain that statement several times, but so far you haven’t answered. Please tell us, how the Iraq war helps anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/175 "2011-11-15T19:34:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > No I wouldn’t. > > You keep claiming I said this. > > Try to understand that it is your own fantasy. As long as the topic is fantasy, have you got a cite for your claim that most people in the military have office jobs in their own country? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/176 "2011-11-15T19:36:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Spitting is a physical attack. Sure, in some sense. But just because one guy starts a physical attack doesn’t give the other guy the right to engage in arbitrary physical attacks in response, beyond what self-defense would allow for. Unless there’s some danger of being spit on again, there’s no call to punch the guy in the face; and even if there is some danger of being spit on again, there’s only call for the minimum requisite force to prevent this (which quite possibly involves, dunh dunh dunh, walking away). > [@](#): > > If I were on a jury and the spitter got smashed in the face with a two-by-four by his target and lost all his teeth, I’d let the guy off. Ridiculous. > [@](#): > > I’d agree with you as far as fighting words with words, but if you escalate it to physical confrontation, you ceded the high ground to the other person. Ceding high ground is not carte blanche for others to then do to you whatever they like. Beating a total jerk is more understandable than beating a nice guy, but no more morally acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/177 "2011-11-15T19:37:18Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > No I wouldn’t. > > You keep claiming I said this. > > Try to understand that it is your own fantasy. I never said you said this. I’m merely taking you at your word. You’ve claimed that soldiers are “thugs” and condemned those who “signed up to kill” whoever they were ordered to. Logically, that would include American soldiers fighting against Nazi Germany. Why would you decide to give them an exemption from your claim that all soldiers are “thugs” unworthy of respect? ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/178 "2011-11-15T19:41:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why would you decide to give them an exemption from your claim that all soldiers are “thugs” unworthy of respect? Well, **Peter** ’s whole point, if I understand him correctly, is that soldiers who knowingly sign up to fight unjustified wars are unworthy of respect. If **Peter** thinks America’s involvement in WWII was just, he is perfectly free to consistently consider the American volunteers for WWII as worthy of respect. Indeed, he does: > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > The ones fighting a war because they believe in the cause, they are worthy of respect. And that means that I respect people that fought the Nazis. > > I might even respect a combat medic for going to Iraq, if he thinks the Iraq war is justified, and can explain his reasons. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/179 "2011-11-15T19:42:40Z")
TV programs have created a myth of cops’ firemen and soldiers all being heroes who solve all our problems with little personal gain in an hour. Our doctors get the same treatment on Tv and have since Dr. Kildare long ago. They get great press. They are just people like any other. There are good ones and bad. They suffer from their idea that an attack against one cop is an attack against all. They should not protect the bad ones. They should root them out . ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719/180 "2011-11-15T19:48:00Z")
I’ll make this very simple for you. 1. People who fought Hitler because they oppose Hitler = heroes. 2. People who oppose the war in Iraq, but fight in Iraq for a salary = thugs. 3. People who opposed the war in VietNam, but went to VietNam as an alternative to prison = victims clear? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elevated-social-status-of-soldiers-police-officers-and-firemen-is-it-well-deserved/602719.md?page=10)