# The Elves killed Isildur **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 22, 2002, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327 "2002-12-22T05:36:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/21 "2002-12-22T17:27:51Z")
How much did they know about the ring at the time? Is it possible that they didn’t realise it was so powerful until later? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/22 "2002-12-22T17:30:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > \*\*How much did they know about the ring at the time? Is it possible that they didn’t realise it was so powerful until later? \*\* I’m afraid you’ve wandered into a spoof thread by irreverent JRRT fanatics. Back out slowly and we’ll try not to harm you with our cutting, biting wit. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/23 "2002-12-22T18:18:33Z")
I’m serious, though, in wondering what would have happened if Isildur had survived and kept the ring. And, as Shade suggests, whether the Elves were aware of the danger (if indeed there was danger). Qadgop? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/24 "2002-12-22T18:24:57Z")
I think it would have caused an eventual rift between Arnor and Gondor, as Isildur got increasingly autocratic and erratic, and bugged the s\*\*t out of his nephews and sons by refusing to die. I think we would have seen war between Gondor and Arnor eventually, with Elrond in the middle trying to negotiate, and getting caught up in the fight. If Isildur had wielded the ring, then Galadriel and Elrond could not have used their rings to preserve their realms. I even see the arising of the ringwraiths, with them proclaiming their subservience to Isildur. He would have been the new dark lord, until Sauron regained enough strength to start showing his hand. Messy, messy, messy. I don’t think even the Istari would have had much to work with, trying to unite the foes of evil. I suspect the elves knew just how much trouble the ring could cause. They had, after all, already seen how an unholy oath to holy jewels nearly destroyed them. Just my musings, tho. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/25 "2002-12-22T19:03:10Z")
\<\< It wouldn’t have taken him too long to become as powerful as Sauron, and eventually just as evil. \>\> Naw, that’s where this line of thinking goes awry. The Ring might have tricked Isildur into THINKING he was powerful enough to (dare I say it?) rule the world, but he wouldn’t have been, and he would have been decieved to his downfall. The Ring, after all, knows its master and knows who SHOULD be ruler of the world, and wants to get back to Sauron. When Isildur has the Ring, it knows it needs to hide until Sauron is strong again. But once Sauron has returned, then one way to get back to Sauron is to find someone who wears the ring, and trick them into thinking they are powerful enough to become Master. This will bring them to Sauron’s attention, and he will be able to get the ring back. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/26 "2002-12-22T19:05:13Z")
Just occurred to me: what if the ring had tricked Gollum into thinking that he was powerful enough to rule Middle Earth? Can you imagine Gollum on the Dark Throne, issuing orders: “Getss me more fisssshes! Quick! Double-time! Or I’ll have your head on a platter, I will!” ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/27 "2002-12-22T19:11:04Z")
Let’s not forget that Galadriel was also granddaughter of the Vanyar King Ingwe. But did she participate in the Kinslaying? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/28 "2002-12-22T19:34:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I am Sparticus \* > \*\*Let’s not forget that Galadriel was also granddaughter of the Vanyar King Ingwe. But did she participate in the Kinslaying? \*\* No, it is explicitly stated in JRRT’s writings (somewhere) that she did not. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Kingship](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/96bed5/32.png) [@This\_Kingship](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Kingship)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/29 "2002-12-22T20:45:13Z")
You concrete fools, after the defeat of the nazis, the allied democracies became corrupted with their power, and pulled down the barriers that had kept the non-whites from mixing with us for eons, out of demagoguery, you were born into this, have never known anything else, and consider yourselves the good-in fact, you are nothing short of utterly ignorant, and think things stand still-perhaps in fifty years, you will be as reviled as the nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/30 "2002-12-22T20:57:30Z")
Uh, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/31 "2002-12-22T21:44:29Z")
OK, that guy peed in the pool. Everybody out of this thread until it’s thoroughly decontaminated! ---
**Author:** ![This\_Kingship](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/96bed5/32.png) [@This\_Kingship](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Kingship)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/32 "2002-12-22T21:46:31Z")
Derision, mockery, and slander are your weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/33 "2002-12-22T21:57:47Z")
And this relates to the discussion about a secret conspiracy of elves being behind Isildur’s death how? ---
**Author:** ![This\_Kingship](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/96bed5/32.png) [@This\_Kingship](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Kingship)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/34 "2002-12-22T22:00:48Z")
Ok, you dont wanna do battle anymore. Okay then. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/35 "2002-12-22T22:03:35Z")
**Moderator’s notes** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by This Kingship \* > \*\*You concrete fools, after the defeat of the nazis, the allied democracies became corrupted with their power, and pulled down the barriers that had kept the non-whites from mixing with us for eons, out of demagoguery, you were born into this, have never known anything else, and consider yourselves the good-in fact, you are nothing short of utterly ignorant, and think things stand still-perhaps in fifty years, you will be as reviled as the nazis. \*\* **This Kingship** : this kind of drive-by racism has nothing to do with this thread and is entirely unwelcome here. Do not do this again. I am also going to be alerting the rest of the moderators to have a look at your posting history to determine whether you’re welcome here at all. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![This\_Kingship](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/96bed5/32.png) [@This\_Kingship](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/This_Kingship)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/36 "2002-12-22T22:12:17Z")
Censorship? I have no time for nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/37 "2002-12-22T22:41:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by This Kingship \* > \*\*Censorship? I have no time for nazis. \*\* Well, neither did the elves! Seriously, I think Meneldil did it. Think about it. When Arvedui comes to claim the throne of Gondor after the death of Ondoher, the Council of Gondor says he can’t, because Isildur relinquished the throne of Gondor in Meneldil’s favor. Arvedui answers that Meneldil just ruled Gondor in Isildur’s name. So, why the discrepency between the two accounts? It’s obvious. In the year 2 S.A., Isildur gives the thrown of Gondor to Meneldil, and rides home, and Meneldil kills him before he can change his mind. Then Meneldil says to the people of Gondor, “He renounced the throne of Gondor to me.”, and, of course, they believe him. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/38 "2002-12-23T03:53:05Z")
Of course, if the elves had left well enough alone, and had not conspired to kill Isildur, **This Kingship** probably would never have found it and turned to the dark side… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/39 "2002-12-23T04:24:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shade \* > \*\*How much did they know about the ring at the time? Is it possible that they didn’t realise it was so powerful until later? \*\* Yeah! What did the elves know, and when did they know it? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arden Ranger \* > I’m still laughing at > > > [@](#): > > > > Copäcabano! How _can_ you?! Surely Barry must be singing in your head now, as he is in mine. _Make it stop!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Arden\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@Arden\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arden_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327/40 "2002-12-23T04:31:58Z")
Yeah, but I like Barry! And in Elvish… heh [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-elves-killed-isildur/144327.md?page=3)