# The end all be all Firefly thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 5, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582 "2004-02-05T00:48:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/81 "2004-03-02T21:33:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The problem I have with **Ponder** and **Knowed** ’s ideas about Book’s background is that it doesn’t accout for his martial skills. He knows hand to hand combat, and is a crack shot with an assault rifle. Neither of these are skills a Shepherd is supposed to have, if we can judge from the reactions of those around him when he demonstrates those skills. So if he’s always been a Shepherd, when and why did he pick up those skills? I’m thinking he learned how to fight as he was being brought up by his family, what Ponder refers to as the Medicis. Since they have powerful enemies, they make sure all family members are trained in various forms of combat. The constant threat of violence is probably what led Book to leave his family for monastic life. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/82 "2004-03-02T21:42:58Z")
I don’t know about that. He didn’t strike me as someone who was just trained, he struck me as somebody who was experienced. Plus, “My family was wealthy so they paid for all my military training, but I didn’t like it so I joined a monastary,” isn’t much of a deep dark secret, and Joss _luurves_ his deep, dark secrets. Knowing him, Book’s history is as bad as it could possibly be before it becomes completely impossible to respect the character at all. There’s also his apparent in-depth knowledge of police procedure and organized crime, neither of which (especially the last one) can be explained by that theory. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/83 "2004-03-03T06:48:04Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > I don’t think Shepherd Book had a “regular” life before he became a Shepherd. He tells Jayne that he’s never had sex, _ever_. I didn’t think Book said he _had_ never had sex, just that he never could again because of his vows. IIRC, without going back and watching the DVDs to check (since I don’t recall the specific episode), the scene picks up on the conversation in progress, with Jayne saying, “What, _never_?” It was my impression that Book had told him his vows don’t allow sex, not that he’d never had sex in his life. > [@](#): > > (And he says in _Serenity_, a few times, “I never married.” Like that was an important detail to him.) That was because people kept calling him “grampa”. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/84 "2004-03-03T11:39:34Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > “War Stories,” right? Where Mal and Wash are held hostage by scary psycho guy from the Train Heist episode, and the rest of the group rescues Mal at the end. Book was very cool in that one. Book and Simon have one of my favourite bits from Firefly (so far…I missed most of the series in first run, and in the reruns on Space, due to work. I need to start taping it when I get a new job :p) in that episode. This is from memory, so it mightn’t be completely correct: Mal (To Simon): Are you alright? Simon: I don’t know…I’ve never shot anyone before. Book: Son, I was there. I’m fair sure you haven’t shot anyone yet. The other favourite: Mal and Zoe are on an Alliance-friendly planet on Unification Day. Mal is picking a fight with one of the locals. After said local goes into an anti-Independant rant Mal stands up. Mal: Why don’t you say that to my face? Alliance Guy stands up and repeats his screed, to Mal’s face. AG: What are you going to do about it? Mal: Nothing, I just wanted you to say it to my face so she could get behind you. AG turns around to see Zoe who clocks him, but good. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/85 "2004-03-03T12:48:08Z")
More movie news: > **[SERENITY Now!!!!!!!!!!!](http://legacy.aintitcool.com/node/17110)** > > I am - Hercules!! Wednesday morning's Variety reports that Universal has greenlit the big-screen “Firefly" movie for a June start and a 2005 release. (Recall that, back on Feb. 10, Coaxial News reported a May start and a late 2005... Shiny! Brian ---
**Author:** ![DeadlyAccurate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@DeadlyAccurate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeadlyAccurate)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/86 "2004-03-03T13:34:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t know about that. He didn’t strike me as someone who was just trained, he struck me as somebody who was experienced. Plus, “My family was wealthy so they paid for all my military training, but I didn’t like it so I joined a monastary,” isn’t much of a deep dark secret, and Joss _luurves_ his deep, dark secrets. Knowing him, Book’s history is as bad as it could possibly be before it becomes completely impossible to respect the character at all. > > There’s also his apparent in-depth knowledge of police procedure and organized crime, neither of which (especially the last one) can be explained by that theory. I agree. He knew who Niska was as soon as he knew his name and knew how dangerous he was. Also, knowing how to shoot a gun is a heck of a lot different than being comfortable shooting it _at people_. Book wasn’t just a crack shot in that episode; he was experienced. I’m rewatching the series (after watching it for the first time just a few weeks ago), and I’m so loving it. _Heart of Gold_ is one of my favorite episodes, but it may be because I think Mindy Clarke is a terrific actor. I can no longer pick a favorite character, and even my initial dislike of Jayne turned into absolute adoration. My husband used to dislike Inara, but by the end of the show, she was fast becoming one of his favorite characters. I loved the fact that Inara and Mal were so attracted to each other, but neither could admit it. He (my husband, not Mal) still found River to be too annoying for words, but I liked her. Wash and Zoe’s relationship: WOW. The episode where Wash and Mal are being tortured by Niska and Zoe goes to buy their freedom, I expected at least a moment of hesitation or regret from Zoe at having to make a choice. None. That’s what makes _Firefly_ so great. They also have such strong female roles in the show. Zoe is the tough, powerful fighter that we women want to be and that’s so popular in fiction today (my main character in my series novel is like that). Kaylee is sweet, not a fighter, but strong in a different way. The first time she has to pick up a gun, she’s okay with it until she has to shoot someone. And she can’t do it. And that’s okay. You don’t _want_ Kaylee killing people. Inara doesn’t even try (though she holds a gun on Saffron in _Trash_.) She knows what she’s good at, and while she definitely won’t hesitate to shoot someone, she doesn’t turn into Lara Croft when it’s time for the shooting to start. River is still an enigma we never got a chance to fully understand, but you get the feeling (and the characters hint that) the government was training her to be an elite assassin. And does anyone else think part of Jayne’s antagonism toward Simon is because he has a bit of a crush on Kaylee? ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/87 "2004-03-03T13:47:34Z")
> [@DeadlyAccurate](#): > > And does anyone else think part of Jayne’s antagonism toward Simon is because he has a bit of a crush on Kaylee? Actually, not before you wrote that. I mean, no, I don’t think it was ever hinted at in the episodes, but it seems like such a great direction for Jayne’s character. I could see it happening, though. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/88 "2004-03-03T14:19:49Z")
> [@Ferrous](#): > > I didn’t think Book said he _had_ never had sex, just that he never could again because of his vows. IIRC, without going back and watching the DVDs to check (since I don’t recall the specific episode), the scene picks up on the conversation in progress, with Jayne saying, “What, _never_?” It was my impression that Book had told him his vows don’t allow sex, not that he’d never had sex in his life. Yeah—yeah—that could be it! Since we hear the conversation in the middle, that could be. I’ll have to review the DVD and see how exactly that all goes. > [@](#): > > That was because people kept calling him “grampa”. No, actually, I don’t think that was all there was to it. I think the more predictable or logical response would be “I don’t have any kids.” Because you can’t be a grandpa without having kids first. And you don’t need to be married to have kids. So really, being married doesn’t have much to do with it. _Unless_ you’re the kind of guy that could not fathom the notion of having kids (which would mean having sex) without being married. So, to him, having kids = married. That’s why I thought Book’s response about how he never married was a little unusual. Shiny indeed, the news about the movie! Though if they don’t have Book or Wash I will be seriously vexed. I just hope the reporter’s hands were tired. Damn—that better be it. Tengu: I love those quotes you gave! Very clever stuff. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/89 "2004-03-03T14:30:06Z")
> [@DeadlyAccurate](#): > > And does anyone else think part of Jayne’s antagonism toward Simon is because he has a bit of a crush on Kaylee? **YES!!!** YES! Definitely. I noticed that in the pilot. Jayne was teasing Kaylee at the dinner table because she was shining up to the new passenger (Simon) and asking him all sorts of questions about being a doctor. Jayne keeps on making crude comments and has to be told to leave the table. Jayne is _bugged_ that Kaylee is giving Simon attention, and like a big dumb kid, he has to insult her to get her attention. When she was shot and Simon was doing surgery, Jayne was furtively hovering outside the infirmary (medical room—whatever you call it) and crouched down, trying to hear what they were saying and watching over the whole thing (because it was touch-and-go with Kaylee). It was obvious that he was very concerned for her welfare but didn’t want anyone to know how worried he really was. They seemed to drop the Jayne-having-a-crush on Kaylee thing in later episodes (or perhaps it was too subtle and I wasn’t picking up on it) but there definitely was some element of that there. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/90 "2004-03-03T14:44:07Z")
Well, **Miller** and **DeadlyAccurate** , I don’t disagree with you. The idea of Book as an ex-badass of some sort certainly has appeal. I personally like the “Medici” angle better because it gets us deeper into Alliance politics. What if this family also happens to own the Blue Sun company, mmm? But since all members of the family have now been assassinated or run to ground (like Book), they no longer control it – a rival family has now taken over. Which isn’t to say Book’s family were good guys. Far from it – they were the nastiest of the nasties which is precisely why they were largely assassinated. Of course, the two ideas aren’t mutually exclusive. Perhaps Book (because he was a member of a minor branch of the family) was a “hit man” for his family, and not particularly priviledged. Or perhaps he was a high-ranking officer (again, because of family connections) during the war who was involved in some sort of atrocities … but again, since wasn’t a “big man” within the family, we wasn’t responsible, just a participant. I’m liking the Officer idea better and better … unlike most of his relatives, he had an actual _conscience_, which is why immediately after the war – or even before it was over – he left the military and joined the monastery, where he has been ever since. The only problem I have with this angle is his age would seem to be wrong. He should be closer to Mal and Zoe’s age, but he is obviously older than that. And I get the idea he has been in the monastery a long time, so that whatever bad-ass stuff he once did was perhaps when he was in his twenties. Oh well, that’s enough unfocused rambling for now! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/91 "2004-03-03T14:48:59Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > More movie news: > [SERENITY Now!!!!!!!!!!!](http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=17110) > > Shiny! > > Brian My company’s nannyware blocks Ain’t It Cool. What does that link say about the movie? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/92 "2004-03-03T14:57:45Z")
Very short little blurb. The movie will be called “Serenity” and Joss Whedon will be writing it and making his directorial debut. It’s set about 6 months after the TV show left off and is about two passengers who bring trouble to the crew. The story mentions all actors being it it, except for Ron Glass and Alan Tudyk specifically, but let’s hope that’s just an oversight. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/93 "2004-03-03T15:17:13Z")
Variety article here [http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/variety/20040303/va\_ne\_al/\_serenity\_\_greenlit\_1](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/variety/20040303/va_ne_al/_serenity__greenlit_1) Brian ---
**Author:** ![kasuo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8c91f0/32.png) [@kasuo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kasuo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/94 "2004-03-03T16:17:30Z")
[frantic Ned Flanders] Diddly! Firefly movie iddly! [/fnf] ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/95 "2004-03-03T16:26:15Z")
> [@N9IWP](#): > > Variety article here > > [Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/variety/20040303/va_ne_al/_serenity__greenlit_1) > > Brian Thanks for that! I wonder if the “two passengers who attract trouble” refers to River and Simon, or two new characters? ---
**Author:** ![Jenny\_Haniver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Jenny\_Haniver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenny_Haniver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/96 "2004-03-03T16:45:27Z")
Woo! And, may I add, Hoo. Time to hit the button and call back the shuttles! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/97 "2004-03-03T18:57:48Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > Thanks for that! > > I wonder if the “two passengers who attract trouble” refers to River and Simon, or two new characters? I hope Simon and River. Keep it to the core cast. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/98 "2004-03-03T20:24:08Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > No, actually, I don’t think that was all there was to it. I think the more predictable or logical response would be “I don’t have any kids.” Because you can’t be a grandpa without having kids first. Because people are always predictable and logical in their responses, right? 😉 > [@](#): > > And you don’t need to be married to have kids. So really, being married doesn’t have much to do with it. _Unless_ you’re the kind of guy that could not fathom the notion of having kids (which would mean having sex) without being married. So, to him, having kids = married. > > That’s why I thought Book’s response about how he never married was a little unusual. Well, you could certainly be right. It just seemed to me to be more of a throw-away line when the first captain approached him. (Paraphrasing heavily here) “Hey, grampa, why don’t you come with us? We’ve got the best ship, blah blah blah.” Book knew at a glance that he didn’t want to go with that guy; didn’t like the look of the ship, or the man, or both. So he just tossed off “I never married” in a distracted tone, and kept walking, as a reasonably polite way to blow the guy off. Then a minute later, when Kaylee, who he _did_ like immediately, said the same thing, he said it again because it was still in his mind from before. Only this time with a smile. But then again, it’s possible to overanalyze these things. Now that we’re deprived of our weekly (more or less) Firefly fix, we’re reduced to rehashing minutiae from old shows. Despite Joss’ love of intricate plots and foreshadowing, not _every_ line is a set-up for future shows. Still, I’m delighted to hear we may get to find out. Yea, Firefly movie! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/99 "2004-03-03T21:17:37Z")
> [@Fiver](#): > > I wonder if the “two passengers who attract trouble” refers to River and Simon, or two new characters? According to [TV Tome](http://www.tvtome.com/Firefly/), the original crew will be back in its entirety. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582/100 "2004-03-03T21:32:14Z")
The crew may be back in its entirety, **Jeff Olsen** , but that wouldn’t necessarily mean Simon and River are the “two passengers who attract trouble.” It could be two new passengers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-all-be-all-firefly-thread/227582.md?page=4)