# The end of a copyright experiment. RIAA shows its true colors. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050 "2012-08-29T17:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/201 "2012-09-10T13:58:00Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Your efforts to tangibly link IP infringement and actual theft while demanding Holden’s address so you can come and steal his things, asserting by implication that he doesn’t believe in any property rights at all, when he said nothing of the sort. Why yes, he did say something of the sort: “Personally, I don’t think stealing is ethically wrong…” If he doesn’t think so, then he should have no problem with me stealing. The state he lives in might have a problem with it, and arrest me for it, but he can’t complain. His belief in property rights has nothing to do with ethics - he believes property rights are good for society only. You’d think that would make him understand and support IP, but whatever. If you had gone back and read the thread, you’d see that Holden and I have already discussed this and you’d understand the context. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/202 "2012-09-10T14:48:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Why yes, he did say something of the sort: > > “Personally, I don’t think stealing is ethically wrong…” > > If he doesn’t think so, then he should have no problem with me stealing. The state he lives in might have a problem with it, and arrest me for it, but he can’t complain. > > His belief in property rights has nothing to do with ethics - he believes property rights are good for society only. You’d think that would make him understand and support IP, but whatever. > > If you had gone back and read the thread, you’d see that Holden and I have already discussed this and you’d understand the context. Oh, I’ve read the thread. It’s a hoot. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/203 "2012-09-10T15:50:33Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > Is it really that surprising, given every word I’ve typed into this thread so far? So you’re an attorney IIRC. I assume you have absolutely no problem the next time you do some legal work if a complete stranger comes in and takes your check for your work. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/204 "2012-09-10T20:36:51Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > To address your point of free information for all, I need a little clarification. Which of these would you consider appropriate in your information utopia? > > 1. You copy another’s work for your profit. I sing a song in concert and you record it and sell it for $10/copy. > 2. You copy another’s work to avoid payment. I recorded a song and your friend has the CD. You copy the song to avoid paying for it on iTunes thus depriving me of income. > 3. You copy another’s work but no money is involved. I put a song on my website and it’s free but to download it, I ask for some demographic information (sex, age, etc.) to track my audience. Money is not the issue but I have a reason for controlling distribution (i.e. to gather data). You copy the song for a friend and he never visits my website. How about these? 1. A network broadcasts your song freely over the air. I copy it and watch it in another market that does not carry your song? 2. You let someone broadcast your work on a commercial supported medium. I TiVo it and play it back many times always skipping all of the commercials? 3. I torrent an a work that is being freely distributed on hulu, so that I can watch it without all the stutters and glitches of the in browser flash player? ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/205 "2012-09-11T01:09:46Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So you’re an attorney IIRC. I assume you have absolutely no problem the next time you do some legal work if a complete stranger comes in and takes your check for your work. Where is this strange leap in logic coming from? There are certain things I consider ethically wrong. There are certain things that I don’t want to happen. Those two groups are not the same. There’s nothing inconsistent about that. For example, there’s nothing ethically wrong with my company laying me off during a downturn. At the same time, I don’t want it to happen. If you still don’t get it, I can try with visual aides. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/206 "2012-09-11T01:14:17Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > Where is this strange leap in logic coming from? There are certain things I consider ethically wrong. There are certain things that I don’t want to happen. Those two groups are not the same. There’s nothing inconsistent about that. > > For example, there’s nothing ethically wrong with my company laying me off during a downturn. At the same time, I don’t want it to happen. Sure. So if I came to your house and stole your stuff, you might complain a little, but once I had your stuff in my car and was about to drive away, you’d simply give up because what’s done is done. You couldn’t complain to me that it was wrong. Correct? It’s mine now. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/207 "2012-09-11T01:24:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure. > > So if I came to your house and stole your stuff, you might complain a little, but once I had your stuff in my car and was about to drive away, you’d simply give up because what’s done is done. You couldn’t complain to me that it was wrong. Correct? It’s mine now. I was kidding about the visual aides. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/208 "2012-09-11T01:30:15Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I was kidding about the visual aides. Sorry. It’s okay, I stole those too. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/209 "2012-09-11T01:31:17Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > How about these? > > 1. A network broadcasts your song freely over the air. I copy it and watch it in another market that does not carry your song? > 2. You let someone broadcast your work on a commercial supported medium. I TiVo it and play it back many times always skipping all of the commercials? > 3. I torrent an a work that is being freely distributed on hulu, so that I can watch it without all the stutters and glitches of the in browser flash player? How about you answer his first before throwing out your own? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/210 "2012-09-11T01:51:24Z")
Legally they were wrong, of course, but what’s ethically wrong about making available works that aren’t available in any other format? If the works aren’t actually available for sale in a format that makes the copyright holders money, then how are they losing money? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/211 "2012-09-11T01:54:13Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Legally they were wrong, of course, but what’s ethically wrong about making available works that aren’t available in any other format? If the works aren’t actually available for sale in a format that makes the copyright holders money, then how are they losing money? The copyright holder may plan to make them available in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/212 "2012-09-11T01:58:13Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Legally they were wrong, of course, but what’s ethically wrong about making available works that aren’t available in any other format? If the works aren’t actually available for sale in a format that makes the copyright holders money, then how are they losing money? That’s where it leaves money and enters into some theoretical right of first refusal to make theoretical money. And guess what, the out-of-print / abandonware issue is usually the point where rights holders and their allies lose interest in having a discussion. I don’t know, maybe they have the feeling that the rest of the world shouldn’t be free to paw through eighty-plus years of their garbage. But what if it weren’t garbage? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/213 "2012-09-11T12:56:35Z")
I remember a court case where two guys were prosecuted for taking copper wire from an “abandoned” railroad. They assumed nobody wanted it. But someone still owned that land and the wire on it, and you can’t just assume that they don’t want it any more just because it’s sitting there unused. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/214 "2012-09-11T14:22:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The copyright holder may plan to make them available in the future. If they have definite plans for that, and it’s within the next couple of years, then yeah, they’d be well within their rights to be pissed off. (Legally of course they have that right anyway). They could contact UKNova and tell them to take it down. Or maybe it would prompt them to actually make their content legally available. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/215 "2012-09-11T14:53:47Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > If they have definite plans for that, and it’s within the next couple of years, then yeah, they’d be well within their rights to be pissed off. They have a right to be pissed off in any case whatsoever. Their plans are not known to you, nor do they need to be, nor can you assume them. They don’t have to have any plans. They can change their plans at any time. You may not assume you know what their plans are, nor can you violate copyright based on what you think they are, or know they are. > [@](#): > > Or maybe it would prompt them to actually make their content legally available. They are under no obligation to make their content legally available. The fact that they don’t is not your concern. You have no claim to the content whatsoever. You may not take it without permission, for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/216 "2012-09-11T15:07:21Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I just wanted to confirm that copyright is a reward for _creation_, and not just any time and effort. Not really. It can just be something you bought from someone, who bought it from someone, who bought it from the original copyright holder; while the _actual creator_ got a small bonus or nothing. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The copyright holder may plan to make them available in the future. Or not. You also assume that there is an actual clear cut copyright holder. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > They are under no obligation to make their content legally available. The fact that they don’t is not your concern. Yes, it is. If they are just sitting on copyrighted material then they are violating the whole reason that copyright exists in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/217 "2012-09-11T15:17:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or not. But you don’t know. The copyright holder will tell you when you have permission to copy his work, and under what terms. Until then, you must wait. > [@](#): > > You also assume that there is an actual clear cut copyright holder. True, but an entirely different issue. > [@](#): > > Yes, it is. If they are just sitting on copyrighted material then they are violating the whole reason that copyright exists in the first place. That’s why we have terms of copyright. The copyright will expire. Until then, the owner owns the content and can do what he wants with it. Most will release it because they can make money that way. A few might not. Overall, it greatly increases the content released to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/218 "2012-09-11T15:31:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But you don’t know. The copyright holder will tell you when you have permission to copy his work, and under what terms. Until then, you must wait. It quite likely isn’t his work. And no, the copyright holder _shouldn’t_ be allowed to just sit on what they have copyrighted; there should be a use-it-or-lose it clause to copyright. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > True, but an entirely different issue. No it isn’t; quite a lot of “abandonware” has no clear cut copyright holder. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s why we have terms of copyright. The copyright will expire. Until then, the owner owns the content and can do what he wants with it. Most will release it because they can make money that way. A few might not. Overall, it greatly increases the content released to the public. No, our present setup is greatly limiting what is available. And we have copyright in order to encourage the dissemination of information, not to have the government serve as enforcer for people who just want to sit on it. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/219 "2012-09-11T15:47:31Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The copyright holder will tell you when you have permission to copy his work, and under what terms. Until then, you must wait. If the holder is a big enough company and the market is small enough, you must wait essentially forever. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/220 "2012-09-11T15:49:16Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > If the holder is a big enough company and the market is small enough, you must wait essentially forever. Or if there are dozens of _different_ copyright holders; like with a lot of TV shows where there’s a different copyright holder for every bit of music or video clip. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050.md?page=12)