# The end of a copyright experiment. RIAA shows its true colors. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050 "2012-08-29T17:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/161 "2012-09-07T17:34:51Z")
Here’s what the problem in this thread boils down to. Everyone can agree that it is wrong to steal a tangible object because stealing it deprives to owner of its use. It is obvious that this same standard cannot apply to intangible objects because there is no deprivation. This is where the thinking forks. Small minority: Since it is not really stealing by the classic definition, there is no ethical and should be no legal reason why I should not have a copy of it. Large majority: The work is a creation of my time and effort. Whether it is tangible or not, this information in this form exists because of my work and not yours. Because of this, I should be the one to control how it is dispersed. I suspect the small minority don’t really get ownership of IP because they don’t actually have any intellectual property and if they do, they don’t care who takes it so they (selfishly) think that everyone else’s work should be available on their terms. Also, they’ve never had a co-worker steal an idea and present it as their own. I’m going to start a poll to see what the relationship of IP and views on copyright laws are. Maybe it will give some perspective to the discussion. For the poll IP means means anything that you have created like a book, article, song, movie, photo, blog, radio commercial promo, etc. that has been made publically available. So yes you may technically have a copyright on that memoir on your trip to the Grand Canyon when you were 6 that is in a box in the garage, but for the poll don’t count it because if it is not publically available then the chance of having your work stolen is small. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/162 "2012-09-07T17:37:31Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > Yes, I would get rid of patents as well. You realize that this would mean that most technology would not exist, right? Like, say, the computer you’re using? Companies don’t spent millions in R&D so that others can take it for free. > [@](#): > > The thing about your challenge is that every expression that is fixed in a tangible medium is automatically copyrighted under U.S. law, unless it is explicitly dedicated to the public domain. So people create copyrighted works every day without intending to. Then I modify my challenge. Any work that is not for sale anywhere, and not yet in the public domain, is yours. You simply can’t have anything that someone, somewhere, is legally entitled to demand money for and is doing so. > [@](#): > > Also, I don’t believe that, if there were no copyright, all those works would have never been created. Where’s the evidence for that? Really? You think most authors would sit down and spend months or years on a book with no hope of compensation? That’s just one of many examples I shouldn’t have to explain to you. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/163 "2012-09-07T17:39:51Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > People create every day without the expectation of being paid, and the means of creation have become less and less expensive. Take music for example. If the average person writing songs thought that one day she would get paid to do it, I’d say she’s delusional. And yet she keeps on writing songs. That’s creative output without the profit motive created by exclusive control. There’s plenty of it going on. She doesn’t keep writing songs for long though, because she’s got to get back to her job, since she has no hope of every making money on her art. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, copyright is a significant intrusion on the freedom of speech. Is that what you’d say to your college professor if he caught you plagiarizing too? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/164 "2012-09-07T17:49:31Z")
[Poll is up](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=664752). I also put in the OP my description of my intellectual property. Ms Robyn did a good job in this thread describing hers. If you are going to visit the poll, maybe you can describe what you’ve created/published. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/165 "2012-09-07T17:55:43Z")
Hey Holden, Write me a book. Then send me a copy for free. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/166 "2012-09-07T18:19:40Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Write me a book. Then send me a copy for free. I said I want to abolish copyright. I said I don’t think copyright infringement is ethically wrong. If I do ever write a book, you are more than welcome to download it from the internet. I never said I think you have the right to make me write you a book. If you think I said that, I would love to see the logical leaps you took to get there. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/167 "2012-09-07T18:29:08Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I said I want to abolish copyright. I said I don’t think copyright infringement is ethically wrong. I didn’t say it was. If I do ever write a book, you are more than welcome to download it from the internet. [/QUOTE] But you’re never going to write a book. That’s my point. > [@](#): > > I never said I think you have the right to make me write you a book. This point isn’t about ethics, it’s about incentive. You’re not going to write a book. And you know that most people won’t if they can’t copyright it. Some might, sure, but those books will be crap, because they are by amateurs. Few people will have the time or money to devote serious effort to writing books for no pay. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/168 "2012-09-07T18:40:29Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > This point isn’t about ethics, it’s about incentive. > > You’re not going to write a book. And you know that most people won’t if they can’t copyright it. Some might, sure, but those books will be crap, because they are by amateurs. Few people will have the time or money to devote serious effort to writing books for no pay. I don’t see the evidence that we would not have good books without copyright. What makes the people that will write books without copyright amateurs, and the people that write good books now professionals? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/169 "2012-09-07T18:41:15Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I said I want to abolish copyright. I said I don’t think copyright infringement is ethically wrong. > > If I do ever write a book, you are more than welcome to download it from the internet. I understand that you choose to give your work away for free and I respect that. But why should I be **forced** to give my work away for free? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/170 "2012-09-07T18:45:58Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I don’t see the evidence that we would not have good books without copyright. > > What makes the people that will write books without copyright amateurs, and the people that write good books now professionals? People who write good books get advances from publishers, or grants or stipends. They may spend months or years, and sometimes money for travel, without working on another job to support themselves. They spend years developing their craft, including possibly taking classes or getting degrees. The idea that we wouldn’t lose a whole lot of our best book writing if we made it all free is just not credible. It’s incredibly naive. Perhaps you have gotten used to stealing stuff for so long that you don’t realize that it costs money to produce good material. Next up - movies. You think people are going to invest the millions of dollars it takes to make even a small decent movie without expecting a dime in return? ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/171 "2012-09-07T18:47:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But why should I be **forced** to give my work away for free? I don’t think you should be forced to give your work away at all. But if someone else has a copy of your work, I don’t think you should be able to keep them from copying it. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/172 "2012-09-07T18:51:44Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > The idea that we wouldn’t lose a whole lot of our best book writing if we made it all free is just not credible. I accept the possibility that we would lose “a whole lot of our best book writing,” but I don’t see any evidence that no more good books would be produced. Although many of the best books are produced with a lot of investment like the advances, the extra time, and the travel you mention, some are produced without those things. I think we’d still have those great books. > [@](#): > > Next up - movies. You think people are going to invest the millions of dollars it takes to make even a small decent movie without expecting a dime in return? I also reject the notion that creators wouldn’t still make some money without copyright. I doubt James Cameron could make enough to fund the production of Avatar, but I do think we’d still have movies. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/173 "2012-09-07T18:55:13Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I accept the possibility that we would lose “a whole lot of our best book writing,” but I don’t see any evidence that no more good books would be produced. Those statement are contradictory. > [@](#): > > Although many of the best books are produced with a lot of investment like the advances, the extra time, and the travel you mention, some are not. I think we’d still have those great books. So why don’t you take my challenge and just read those? If you’re happy with those books, and don’t need the ones that cost you money, then don’t read them. Problem solved. If you feel the need to take books that are protected by copyright and licensed only for sale to paying customers, though, then your actions disprove your claim. > [@](#): > > I also reject the notion that creators wouldn’t still make some money without copyright. I doubt James Cameron could make enough to fund the production of Avatar, but I do think we’d still have movies. No, we’d have almost no movies. Movies always cost money. Very few people would invest it for no return. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/174 "2012-09-07T18:58:41Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I don’t think you should be forced to give your work away at all. But if someone else has a copy of your work, I don’t think you should be able to keep them from copying it. So you take the power away from the creator to someone who is not the creator. Who are you to decide how MY efforts get disseminated. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/175 "2012-09-07T19:03:54Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So you take the power away from the creator to someone who is not the creator. Who are you to decide how MY efforts get disseminated. I don’t think I’m really taking power away from the creator, though. Without law, you have no power to stop someone else from copying a copy of your ideas. The law gives you that power, and I don’t think it’s a law that’s good for society. I might ask who are you to decide what someone else does with their own personal property (i.e., their copy of your article), but I’m not sure the answer to that question gets us anywhere. Maybe it does. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/176 "2012-09-07T19:06:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > So why don’t you take my challenge and just read those? If you’re happy with those books, and don’t need the ones that cost you money, then don’t read them. Problem solved. > > If you feel the need to take books that are protected by copyright and licensed only for sale to paying customers, though, then your actions disprove your claim. How am I supposed to go about identifying which books would have still existed had it not been for copyright? That’s absurd. Furthermore, my hesitance to take your challenge proves nothing. I am saying that good content would still be produced in the absence of copyright. How does my enjoyment of content that would not be produced in the absence of copyright contradict that? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/177 "2012-09-07T19:08:37Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > I might ask who are you to decide what someone else does with their own personal property (i.e., their copy of your article), but I’m not sure the answer to that question gets us anywhere. Maybe it does. Who am I? I’m the one that created the information. You may own the paper and ink my article is written on but those are my ideas. Let me ask you this: when you copy my article to give to a friend, are you giving them a copy of paper and ink or are you giving them my ideas? If the former, just take a couple sheets of paper and a pen and it’s the same thing right? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/178 "2012-09-07T23:31:44Z")
> [@HoldenCaulfield](#): > > How am I supposed to go about identifying which books would have still existed had it not been for copyright? That’s absurd. Any book that has always been given away for free, from the time it was first published or copied. Clearly any book that has ever been sold for money was intended to make money. Easy test. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, my hesitance to take your challenge proves nothing. I am saying that good content would still be produced in the absence of copyright. How does my enjoyment of content that would not be produced in the absence of copyright contradict that? You’d figure out just how much would be missing without copyright. Duh. But why are you hesitant to take my challenge? YOU are the one claiming we don’t need copyright. You should be happy to consume only non-copyrighted works. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/179 "2012-09-07T23:50:04Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Any book that has always been given away for free, from the time it was first published or copied. Clearly any book that has ever been sold for money was intended to make money. Easy test. > > You’d figure out just how much would be missing without copyright. Duh. > > But why are you hesitant to take my challenge? YOU are the one claiming we don’t need copyright. You should be happy to consume only non-copyrighted works. Your test excludes books that would have been created even without copyright, but are not given away for free given the existence of copyright. I bet there are a lot of those. Without identifying those books, your challenge is useless. ---
**Author:** ![HoldenCaulfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/22d042/32.png) [@HoldenCaulfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoldenCaulfield)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050/180 "2012-09-07T23:51:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Who am I? I’m the one that created the information. You may own the paper and ink my article is written on but those are my ideas. Let me ask you this: when you copy my article to give to a friend, are you giving them a copy of paper and ink or are you giving them my ideas? If the former, just take a couple sheets of paper and a pen and it’s the same thing right? To me, the fact that you were the first to write down a piece of information does not give you the right to control whether or not other people can write down that same piece of information. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-a-copyright-experiment-riaa-shows-its-true-colors/633050.md?page=10)