# The end of religious discussion in GD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240 "2008-04-21T15:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/401 "2008-04-24T18:48:46Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Everything. 😉 It’s a matter of perception. Some people see God in everything they look at. Some people do not. [/QUOTE] More or less basic mysticism (in its original meaning). My personal position is that this insight is a true and valid one, but does not of necessity point to a god or God. It has stuff to say about the relationship between humans and the universe, but the commonality of that experience does not culminate in a proof of God - Taoist mystics and Christian mystics have many points in common, but an Abrahamic diety is not one of them. [QUOTE=Ensign Edison] I have the God Feeling. I just reject it. What convinces you that it’s something real as opposed to your brain playing tricks on you? [/quote] To my mind, these are not necessarily incompatible - mysticism is an emotional response created by the brain, and indeed “mystic experiences” may be physically induced (and neurologists are comming close to understanding what creates them), which to my mind proves there is nothing supernatural about them (and indeed I think that “supernatural” things exist in the realm of mythology only). The issue to me is whether this state serves any useful purpose, and can inform anyone of anything worth understanding. I think it can, but I do not think it is in any way theistic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/402 "2008-04-24T18:49:45Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] See, you are treating science as a religion. I think Science is theism-neutral, as its purview is limited entirely to the mechanics of the physical world. This is not ME treating science like a religion it is YOU doing so. You think Science is ideologically predisposed to your opinion. [/quote] Garbage. As I just said, science demands evidence, which no one has ever produced for religion. And a core principle of science is parsimony, which if followed means that God should be disbelieved in until evidence is presented for his existence or necessity. [QUOTE=mswas] Oh good. You’ve made a positive statement. So prove it. Prove that religion is hostile to everything. [/quote] It’s based on faith, on the declaration that is is true, regardless of facts or the lack thereof. It is a denial of reality, in other words, all that is. In fact, just now : [QUOTE=mswas] What convinces you that what you see with your eyes is real as opposed to your brain playing tricks on you? How do you know that the evidence of your senses is not an elaborate trick played by your brain? How do you know that what you think is rational is not merely internally consistent, and that the external agreement of others outside of you isn’t simply your brain telling you that consensus agrees with your persistent hallucination? [/QUOTE] You posted your own denial of reality in your attempt to defend religion, proving my point. Religion is hostile to REALITY, because reality doesnt support it. [QUOTE=mswas] So you keep decreeing. [/QUOTE] And so you keep proving. Do you really think that doing as you do, simply declaring something to be true, denying the need for evidence, and ignoring physical laws are compatible with science ? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/403 "2008-04-24T18:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Unicorns are extinct they were killed in the great Faery purge of 1598. 😉 [/QUOTE] Do you ever feel uncomfortable when you make a joke, then find out you’re the only one laughing? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/404 "2008-04-24T18:51:36Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] But it does mean that we should regard evidence as nonexistent, until someone comes up with some. Especially since there isn’t even evidence that God’s even possible. Really, if we followed your standards we wouldn’t be able to reason at all. [/quote] The reason we can reason at all is because we learn the rules of subsets and don’t try to misapply them to supersets as you are doing. I don’t need to understand that God exists to determine the velocity of a car travelling down the highway. It’s irrelevant. Whether I believe in God or not the mathematical formula works the same. > [@](#): > > And if someone had some, they’d scream it to the world. They do all the time. You just reject the evidence. _shrugs_ > [@](#): > > Provide some. I don’t do that. I’ve told you that time and again. You think I have some responsibility to change your mind. I do not. I have shown a complete willingness to discuss religion on antheistic terms, discussing sociological and psychological benefits of religion. Remember, I was one of the people in the thread who in the beginning saw religious debate as being pointless. We aren’t going to resolve the God question here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/405 "2008-04-24T18:52:27Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] You guys don’t understand the definitions. You insist. “Please within my atheist framework, convince me of the existance of God. But remember that axiomatically God does not exist.” [/QUOTE] That’s not the atheist viewpoint. Atheists don’t declare that God not existing is an axiom; they claim that the evidence militates against it, and demand some. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/406 "2008-04-24T18:53:05Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Do you ever feel uncomfortable when you make a joke, then find out you’re the only one laughing? [/QUOTE] Occasionally, but I know a lot of people who would find that joke funny. My wife thought it was funny. So I am clearly not the only one laughing. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Omegaman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e480ec/32.png) [@Omegaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omegaman)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/407 "2008-04-24T18:55:29Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, it’s not. The evidence is overwhelmingly against the existence of a soul. And yes, I CAN touch your personality, but cracking open your skull and poking your brain is going a bit far to make a point in an argument over the internet. [/QUOTE] Somehow I can’t imagine you doing something like that even in person. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/408 "2008-04-24T18:56:08Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] You guys don’t understand the definitions. You insist. “Please within my atheist framework, convince me of the existance of God. But remember that axiomatically God does not exist.” Generally God is considered ‘Beyond Limits’. You are expecting me to prove God’s existance within the limits. If something is beyond the bounds of the natural world, how is it exactly that I am to prove God’s existance to you within the bounds of the natural world? The Natural world is a concept held within God’s mind. (Metaphorically speaking), and you want me to define God based upon the limits of something less than God. [/QUOTE] Perhaps this is a reply to someone else in another thread? I didn’t ask for proof, I asked for _evidence_. You do know the difference between the two, right? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/409 "2008-04-24T18:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That’s not the atheist viewpoint. Atheists don’t declare that God not existing is an axiom; they claim that the evidence militates against it, and demand some. [/QUOTE] Right, but you can say that in theory. In practice how you approach it is entirely different. You are attempting to convince me that God does not exist. You are very passionate in your mission. If you didn’t care, you’d act more like **Voyager** or **SentientMeat**. You however find the idea that I believe in God to be offensive, for whatever reason. This passion eliminates any sort of objective bias free approach that can be applied in theory, because in practice you are zealously pursuing a particular result. ---
**Author:** ![focusonz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9dc877/32.png) [@focusonz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/focusonz)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/410 "2008-04-24T18:57:22Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Shame on you declaring that atheists have either a platform or an agenda. 😛 Atheism does not require that one declare that god does not exist, but there are, indeed, some atheists who do declare that god does not exist. [/QUOTE] The definition seems to require the declaration see [Atheism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism) While Agnostics need not make the declaration see [Agnosticism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism) Focus on Z See my final say on the op, The childishness of the negative proof > **[The childishness of the negative proof](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=465322)** > > I must be the oldest and wisest poster on the SDMB for me to see through the dilemma of all staunch theist/atheist thread posters. I started this new thread because my point(s) seem to just get lost in all the noise in the religious debates. The... ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/411 "2008-04-24T18:57:48Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Perhaps this is a reply to someone else in another thread? I didn’t ask for proof, I asked for _evidence_. You do know the difference between the two, right? [/QUOTE] It applies equally in this case. You cannot have evidence that God exists if God permeates everything, because definition is as much about showing what something is as what something is not. You are asking me to prove universal monism within a dualistic framework. It simply doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/412 "2008-04-24T18:58:57Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Somehow I can’t imagine you doing something like that even in person. [/QUOTE] Not to mention that if he cracked open our skulls we would have no more personality, and he wouldn’t be touching a personality, but merely dead grey and white matter. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/413 "2008-04-24T18:59:41Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Occasionally, but I know a lot of people who would find that joke funny. My wife thought it was funny. So I am clearly not the only one laughing. 😉 [/QUOTE] So you think showing contempt for your own line of reasoning is amusing? Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/414 "2008-04-24T19:01:30Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] The reason we can reason at all is because we learn the rules of subsets and don’t try to misapply them to supersets as you are doing. [/quote] You undercut your own beliefs. First, if you are right that God is beyond our ability to reason about or perceive, then we can’t say a word about him, and there’s no reason to consider him relevant at all, or worth talking about in any way. Therefore, the proper response to **any** religious statement should be, “Shut up, you don’t know what you are talking about.” And second ( one more time ), the logical burden is on the person claiming something exists. [QUOTE=mswas] They do all the time. You just reject the evidence. _shrugs_ [/quote] Claiming something is evidence, doesn’t make it evidence. [QUOTE=mswas] I don’t do that. [/QUOTE] You don’t do that, because you are wrong. Because you have no evidence, and you have no evidence because you believe in a fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/415 "2008-04-24T19:03:24Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Somehow I can’t imagine you doing something like that even in person. [/QUOTE] Well, yes, but I’m not a brain surgeon. They DO open people’s skulls and poke inside their personality. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/416 "2008-04-24T19:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Occasionally, but I know a lot of people who would find that joke funny. My wife thought it was funny. So I am clearly not the only one laughing. 😉 [/QUOTE] I thought it was funny, too. Lighten up, people! 🙂 [QUOTE=Maureen] No, I totally understand. In fact, there was a recent thread that discussed that very thing. Unfortunately, it got hijacked early and the overwhelming opinion in that thread was that if your feelings get hurt by my logic, oh well, too bad so sad. You’ll find I disagreed strenuously with that stance. I have no problem with trying to make my point without stepping on toes and being persuasive without being an ass. I just feel that at some point, if someone is bound and determined to find insult, find it they will. [/QUOTE] Sorry I did not answer this yesterday…I have been struck with some kind of viral plague, and I crashed pretty much as soon as I got home. I agree with you there there are people who are overly-sensitive on certain subjects, just as their are people who are not senstive enough in their presentation of their opinions. And I appreciate your opinions in that thread. I think it’s a shame that such discourse can’t go a little more smoothly around here because of offenders on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/417 "2008-04-24T19:04:50Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] So you think showing contempt for your own line of reasoning is amusing? Interesting. [/QUOTE] Yes, I showed contempt for my own line of reasoning. :rolleyes: Do you feel like you won yet? I think you’re feeling like you’re ‘winning’. I mean that’s the point right. To be smarter than the stupid theist? I’m showing contempt for your line of reasoning actually. Comparing a Unicorn to God is stupid. A unicorn is a definable creature, not some sort of mysterious indeterminate state of being that is beyond all definition. Generally I give you credit for being more intelligent than **Der Trihs** maybe that’s a mistake. I mean he thinks he wins some sort of rhetorical victory for showing me that I can’t provide evidence for something I have said long ago that I have no evidence for. Is that the level of your intellect as well? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/418 "2008-04-24T19:05:52Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Well, yes, but I’m not a brain surgeon. They DO open people’s skulls and poke inside their personality. [/QUOTE] brain =/= personality ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/419 "2008-04-24T19:15:30Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] When confronted with a total lack of evidence of something _reason_ should tell you that the thing does not exist, or at the very least that we shoulnd’t think it does until we have a reason to. [/QUOTE] Any evidence he has is subjective in nature and will be unlikely to convince you. That doesn’t mean that he has no reason to believe what he believes. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/420 "2008-04-24T19:19:19Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Wrong. Science by it’s nature is pro-atheist, since it demands evidence for people’s claims, and since parsimony is one of it’s basic principles. It’s **nature** opposes religion. Of course there is; religion is hostile to everything but itself. It is especially hostile to science, since science by it’s nature is the enemy of religion. And yes, your view is the opposite of science. [/QUOTE] Damn, but you’re an ignorant schmuck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240.md?page=22)