# The end of religious discussion in GD **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240 "2008-04-21T15:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/81 "2008-04-22T02:01:09Z")
[QUOTE=Ensign Edison] It’s a cultural issue. Colored socks just don’t value superiority like white socks do. It has nothing to do with their color, of course. You could bleach a colored sock white and it would still be inferior. [/QUOTE] And not only that! I have noticed that _women’s_ socks in particular are flimsy and insufficient for the job of warming feet. They’re not nearly as warm, comfortable or protective as men’s socks. Call me a sexist if you will! It’s still true! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/82 "2008-04-22T02:05:59Z")
[QUOTE=Omegaman] Well NDEs can’t be verified either. By thier very nature they are the same as religion. I take it you don’t feel that way. [/QUOTE] Actually, there are a sufficient number of people who have been resucitated after cardiac arrest who report similar experiences that we can state that NDEs do occur. The trouble comes when we attempt to describe just what the NDE experience indicates regarding death. You may be correct that that point lacks any hope of resolution. On the other hand, the claims that reports of Out-of-Body Experiences indicate the recurrence of a particular type of event CAN be tested and I have posted the methodology on at least two occasions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/83 "2008-04-22T02:07:06Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Politics too. Lets ban that. [/QUOTE] _::: fervently :::_ **AMEN!** ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/84 "2008-04-22T03:20:58Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] And not only that! I have noticed that _women’s_ socks in particular are flimsy and insufficient for the job of warming feet. They’re not nearly as warm, comfortable or protective as men’s socks. Call me a sexist if you will! It’s still true! [/QUOTE] Gracious ladies and gentlemen of the SDMB, I fear we’re losing sight of the greater issue. The deficiencies of various forms of socks are not inherent in their color or even, indeed, in their gender. **Maureen** , I can assure you that I show you, nay, I can make you a pair of colorful women’s socks which are just as warm as and stay up just as well as any plain, white men’s socks. **Der Trihs** , I can make you a pair of socks which, while they may be white as the driven snow contain textures and patterns which would put the most colorful pair of socks you’ve ever seen to shame! If a given pair of socks is deemed deficient or inferior in some way, or even if many pairs of socks are deemed deficient and share the same characteristic, it is not the fault of that sock or that characteristic. Instead, the fault lies in the way the sock was made. Rather than declare colored socks superior to white socks or men’s socks superior to women’s socks, I choose to believe that the differences between socks lies entirely in the way they were shaped by their creator. What did you expect from a knitter?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/85 "2008-04-22T04:24:04Z")
\< claps \> ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/86 "2008-04-22T05:17:13Z")
I know we said that The BBQ Pit was the proper place to discuss socks, but… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/87 "2008-04-22T05:20:03Z")
Seems like one of the primary differences between say **mswas** ’s posts and **lekatt** ’s can sum up why the OP’s argument doesn’t match up. **mswas** approaches the religion debate like we expect and can nominally respect. He doesn’t say that there’s scientific proof of God. He doesn’t claim that there have been studies proving such-and-such about his deity because – wisely both in reason and in theology – he doesn’t associate scientific proof with his belief. Now, granted, I haven’t read all of **mswas** ’s posts, but I feel like he’s a much more honest theist than **lekatt** regardless of how much I agree with him. **lekatt** , on the other hand, is making a claim of fact while asserting evidence. If he said that he believed in NDEs purely as a matter of belief/faith/etc. then I doubt we’d be having this conversation. **lekatt** ’s arguments are NOT equivalent to stating a belief about God. **lekatt** ’s arguments are clothed in the robes of science, so they have to be treated equivalently to other arguments based on scientific evidence. In other words, his arguments are less equivalent to a theist-argument and more similar to claiming that the world is gradually warming due to AGW. One is quite obviously a scientific argument, and **lekatt** ’s arguments fall into the latter. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/88 "2008-04-22T08:30:43Z")
If given a choice, I’d definitely want more posters like **mswas and less like lekatt.** And that’s _me_ saying it - even if we are at each other’s throats lately, I know I could get into a CS discussion with **'wa** s about Skinny Puppy lyrics or the influence of Mute records on Detroit Techno and none of that would carry over. I _don’t know_ if that’s possible with **lekatt** , because I’ve never seen **lekatt** post on _anything else_ but NDEs and “God is love”. I don’t doubt he must have, but I don’t recall seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/89 "2008-04-22T09:53:59Z")
Crikey, is it just me or is the current GD thread turning a bit predatory? I mean, I understand the nature of people’s objections to his infuriating assert-then-evade debating methods, but… I dunno… it just seems a bit too serious and organised an effort to me. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/90 "2008-04-22T10:58:59Z")
Whoa, for once I agree with **Der Trihs**. Colored socks-especially warm, fuzzy, chenille socks, rule. Or rather, should I say, they “rock my socks off?” (Ducks rotten tomatoes) ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/91 "2008-04-22T11:09:43Z")
But look again at what **mswas** had to say: > [@](#): > > Religious debates are automatically poisoned by a few overzealous atheists who will generally gang up with canned arguments and constant berating, ‘prove it’, ‘prove it’, for things you obviously cannot prove, and then consider your lack of proof on a statement of belief as a rhetorical win. They’ll then turn around and make you responsible for the evils of all religious people throughout history, making you defend arguments you never made that some other religious person made with them… He is describing a pattern of behavior by _some_ atheists that is as predictable and destructive as lekatt’s behavior. I can see why the moderators would want to keep **lekatt** from continuing to interrupt with the same posts over and over and then refusing to engage in actual debate. But why are the mods not addressing the other side of the disruption? **lekatt** is not the only one who seems to be practically reading from a script. **Der Trihs** , you repeat yourself as much as **lekatt**. Lekatt may not understand science, but I think he’s more likely to be right than you are. That’s not saying much. You are just a little broken record of hateful and meaningless accusations. I don’t see that much difference between the two of you except for points of view. You are not the only one but you do stand out. **mswas** , that is the best post I’ve read by you. It is so tightly written that I had trouble using just an excerpt. You wrote what I have been feeling and could not put into words. _Thank you_. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/92 "2008-04-22T11:14:07Z")
I oppose the OP. OTOH, I favor eliminating the entire GD forum. I fail to see any substantial difference between it an IMHO, except that the arguements in GD are more shrill. GD seems to have become the place for prople who don’t actually realize that their positions are OPINIONS, and nothing more. Ah, well, no one will listen this time either… ---
**Author:** ![nd\_n8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/439d5e/32.png) [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/93 "2008-04-22T11:39:52Z")
**lekatt** does for mindless repetition what the grapist did for… mindless repetition. I know I am a simple background player in GD, there is just not enough **N8** to devote to the research needed to rise above pedestrian (although I did finally make it through the Dawkins book and am expanding my C.S. Lewis) however I feel diversity, unrestrained diversity, is essential in a debate forum. Yeah, I have been on the receiving end of **Der Trihs** ’s venom, but have come out better for it. And I have read a good many of **lekatt** ’s posts, as uniquely single minded as they are. I have also enjoyed **mswas** ’ posts and all the other charactors that usually gravitate to the religious threads in GD. It is this diversity that keeps things fresh and interesting, even when discussing a 2000 year old arguement (ok, older than that, just the whole Christ issue is 2000 years old). Science and Religion are like apples and oranges: one can use an apple to postulate that other fruit might exist but an apple cannot be used to prove the existance of an orange. Science cannot be used to prove the existance of _anything_ spiritual, yet science itself can be spiritual. Science can be terrible and beautiful at the same time. When debating scientific theory, proofs and cites are appropriate but when debating spirituality no such proofs exist, and they don’t need to. Belief is personal, spirituality is anecdotal. I would like to see religious debates turning more toward articles of faith and less toward “Does God Exist?”. In this light I find **lekatt** much more annoying and detrimental than **Der Trihs**. Hell, I could see going out west and throwing a couple cold ones back with **Der Trihs** and getting along just fine, **lekatt** not so much. Short answer, no, please do not regulate GD or their posters, stick them in a corner if needed but let us have at each other like the apes we truly are. Oh yeah, white socks baby, really tall tubey white socks with elastic that leaves those special slightly itchy sock prints on the calves. Gotta be white socks. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/94 "2008-04-22T11:42:25Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] There are other message boards out there where religious/mystical beliefs are put forth without fear of challenge or question(mainly because people who try to do so are banned for “giving out negative vibrations” and their posts are removed from sight). You can usually recognize them by the pastel blue and/or pink background, rainbow and/or unicorn and/or angel pictures all around, and the pretty-pretty avatars. This ain’t that kind of message board. [/QUOTE] Wow. Your vitriol towards religious/mystical beliefs is barely contained here. It’s one thing to pursue logical debate, it’s quite another to spew disgust. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/95 "2008-04-22T11:48:21Z")
[QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl] Wow. Your vitriol towards religious/mystical beliefs is barely contained here. It’s one thing to pursue logical debate, it’s quite another to spew disgust. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. What I have disdain for are people who want to put forth ideas and have all questions and dissent about said ideas stifled. Great Debates is where you should discuss religious beliefs, but nobody gets a free pass-you have the right to believe, but others have the right to question. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/96 "2008-04-22T11:49:42Z")
The shot opens with Hentor’s back to the camera. We see that he is surveying a landscape strewn with the hurt feelings of religious posters. Hentor turns, and the camera pulls in tight. He stares pointedly into the camera, one tear rolling down his left cheek. And… scene! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/97 "2008-04-22T12:39:46Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] The shot opens with Hentor’s back to the camera. We see that he is surveying a landscape strewn with the hurt feelings of religious posters. Hentor turns, and the camera pulls in tight. He stares pointedly into the camera, one tear rolling down his left cheek. And… scene! [/QUOTE] [Soundtrack: Violin. A really tiny violin (_rubs fingers_) playing for all the religious posters] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/98 "2008-04-22T13:30:27Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Bullshit. What I have disdain for are people who want to put forth ideas and have all questions and dissent about said ideas stifled. Great Debates is where you should discuss religious beliefs, but nobody gets a free pass-you have the right to believe, but others have the right to question. [/QUOTE] To be even more specific, I have utter disdain for “gurus” and “masters” who come forth to enlighten us with T_H_E\* T_R_U_T_H\*. They have no interest in actually discussing ideas and accept no criticism. When they are questioned or critiqued, they spew out false pity, shallow “love”, and tell us that we are spiritual children that are just not enlightened enough to understand, but all would be just hunky dory if we just accepted their great wisdom at face value. If I’m in the market for a “teacher”, I’ll go hire my own, thankyouverymuch-if you post on _this_ message board, be prepared for actual conversation. You main lose some points, you may make some points, but if you come out of it the same way you entered you’ve wasted our time _and_ yours. IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/99 "2008-04-22T13:50:11Z")
[QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl] Wow. Your vitriol towards religious/mystical beliefs is barely contained here. It’s one thing to pursue logical debate, it’s quite another to spew disgust. [/QUOTE] This is the Pit. He, and I, can spew as much disgust as we want. And to be prefectly honest, his post didn’t have that much in it. With the exception of the slight exaggeration of the physical description of the websites, he was spot on. I’ve been to those forums, posted the rational arguments, and been kicked out for doing so. This place is a beacon of openmindedness compared to those sites, and I wouldn’t be here otherwise. He didn’t once call them brainwashed googly eyed cannibal zombies for jebus, and I for one applaud his restraint. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240/100 "2008-04-22T13:58:01Z")
[QUOTE=Brown Eyed Girl] Wow. Your vitriol towards religious/mystical beliefs is barely contained here. It’s one thing to pursue logical debate, it’s quite another to spew disgust. [/QUOTE] I think it’s pretty clear from his post that his disgust is limited to those who are obviously afraid to expose their beliefs to the light of examination, rather than the beliefs in general. I don’t have anything against religion (although it isn’t for me), but I despise people who stick their fingers in their ears and go “la la la I can’t hear you!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-religious-discussion-in-gd/446240.md?page=6)