The end of the oil era: The fall of civilization, or just a bump in the road?

Actually, that doesn’t appear to be the case. I tracked down the U.S.D.A. study referenced in Blake’s cite (which they said was generally considered the most accurate). It appears that the previous belief that ethanol is negative efficient is mainly based on the work of Pimentel. But the U.S.D.A. paper spends quite a bit of time explaining why Pimentel’s data is outdated. They reach quite a different conclusion:
http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-814.pdf

[emphasis added]

Also note that the actual production of the corn IS included in the calculation.

The President of OPEC recently (in the last year or two) made the point “The stone-age didn’t end because people ran out of stones - it ended because they found something better.”

An interesting comment, I think.

My goodness, I agree with Tarantula on something!:eek:

Blake,
Did you read his pdf presentations? Here is one that alarms me somewhat:

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/domino/html/research.nsf/0/8CB9D9EB052E6A1386256CD400705410/$File/IFP2003.pdf
Also - here is the transcript of a recent talk given by Simmons at an international conference :

           The uh, I think basically that now, that peaking of oil will never be
           accurately predicted until after the fact. But the event will occur, and my
           analysis is leaning me more by the month, the worry that peaking is at hand;
           not years away. If it turns out I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But if I'm right,
           the unforeseen consequences are devastating.
           But unfortunately the world has no Plan B if I'm right. The facts are too
           serious to ignore. Sadly the pessimist-optimist debate started too late. The
           Club of Rome humanists were right to raise the 'Limits to Growth' issues in the
           late 1960's. When they raised these issues they were actually talking about a
           time frame of 2050 to 2070. Then time was on the side of preparing Plan B. They
           like Dr. Hubbert got to be seen as Chicken Little or the Boy Who Cried Wolf... 
           - Investment Banker Matthew Simmons
           [Matthew Simmons has been a key advisor to the Bush Administration, Vice
           President Cheney's 2001 Energy Task Force and the Council on Foreign Relations.
           An energy investment banker, Simmons is the CEO of Simmons and Co.
           International, handling an investment portfolio of approximately $56 billion.
           He has served previously on the faculty of Harvard Business School. Among Peak
           Oil researchers he is known for two seemingly contradictory things: being a
           staunch supporter of George W. Bush and his policies and probably the only
           outspoken insider to talk openly about Peak Oil.

           On May 27th, 2003 Simmons addressed the second international conference of
           the Association for the Study of Peak Oil (ASPO) which was meeting at the
           French Petroleum Institute (IFP) via a satellite teleconference video link from
           his Houston offices. His remarks were so revealing that I had them transcribed
           from my tape recording of the event. It is becoming clearer by the day that the
           Bush administration was aware of Peak Oil before taking office (pun intended)
           and Simmons' remarks indicate an awareness of Peak Oil's implications. They
           also predict extremely severe consequences arising from natural gas depletion
           in North America. - MCR]

           Matthew Simmons Transcript

           [Regarding peak energy] It might turn out actually to be one of the most
           important topics for the well being of the globe over the next fifty years,
           which basically (is), "Is the energy glass half full or half empty?" So let me,
           in the course of the next thirty or forty minutes, just share some of the
           issues that I think are important. 

           First of all, the topic of whether the energy glass is half full or half
           empty is right. It basically elicits some of these talks from so many people
           that start out with positions saying, "The glass is half empty, we will never
           run dry." 

           But the real issue is, basically speaking, does not basically mean running
           dry. The debate on how long the dwindling of supplies might take has been
           extremely controversial. In fact, I'd say that most of the debate has been
           one-sided. 

           Optimists argue that the issue is still years away, and to their support is
           that it has never happened before and it's too often been predicted. And each
           time the future looks bleak, the optimists argue, it's always darkest before
           dawn. It is also interesting how many people basically look at undiscovered
           reserves and basically say that we really don't know how much we still have
           left to find, and that's true, but we also, with the evidence of the reserves,
           there's no guarantee that the reserves are actually there.

           I come back to the basics and say I think that one thing that we do all know
           is that oil and gas resources are genuinely non-renewable and so someday they
           will basically run out. And also, we are using 28 billion barrels a year,
           that's a lot of energy to be consuming. And peaking, as you all know, is
           different than running out. Is "peaking" an important question or issue? 

           First of all, if you start out by saying usable energy is the world's most
           critical resource then obviously it is an important issue. Without volume
           energy we have no sustainable water, we have no sustainable food, we now have
           no sustainable healthcare. And since five-sixths of the world still barely uses
           any energy it really is an important issue. And since five-sixths of the world
           is still growing fast or too fast it's even a more important issue.

           What peaking does mean, in energy terms, is that once you've peaked, further
           growth in supply, is over. Peaking is generally, also, a relatively quick
           transition to a relatively serious decline at least on a basin by basin basis. 
           And the issue then, is the world's biggest serious question. [emphasis in
           original]

           Peaking of oil is also probably then assuming peaking of gas too. So is this
           issue important, I think the answer is an emphatic yes. Why does this issue
           evoke such controversy? Well, I think for several reasons, first of all the
           term "peaking", unfortunately, does suggest a bleak future. It also suggests
           high future energy prices and neither are pleasant thoughts. 

           I think it is human nature, basically, to say that we really like to have
           pleasant thoughts. And crying wolf is bad business unless the wolf turns out to
           be already at the front door, and by then, the cry is generally too late. And
           crises are basically problems, by definition, that got ignored. And all great
           crises were ignored until it became too late to do anything about it. And so
           if the issue is serious, why are the answers so dissenting. I think the reasons
           are several-fold. First of all, the data and the methodology to estimate total
           energy resources is still remarkably hazy and takes a lot of fuzzy logic to get
           to the bottom line. 

           Judging the data, for instance, on current decline rates on even fields per
           basin is very hard to define and it turns out that peaking is one of these
           fuzzy events that you only know clearly when you see it through a rear view
           mirror, and by then an alternate resolution is generally too late. 

           Over the course of the last few years, conventional wisdom in the energy
           business became "do not trust conventional wisdom." The voice of energy, for
           better or worse turns out to be the International Association of Energy
           Economists and I will be attending this group's 26th annual meeting next week
           in Prague. 

           This group basically had a mantra throughout the decade of the nineties that
           growth in energy demand is suspect, that energy supplies are surging, that
           Moore's Law has brought down semiconductors at a cost so dramatically it will
           bring energy prices considerably lower, that OPEC is obsolete, and a
           non-sustainable concept. 

           Last year, the IAEE had their 25th annual meeting in Aberdeen, and I attended
           the program. It was really interesting. On Saturday morning, they had 13 of
           the past 25 presidents talking for the better part of two hours, and
           individually reflecting on the lessons that they had learned over the past 25
           years. And I heard 13 consecutive people basically state...what I heard most,
           was the word, "conventional wisdom." This was the big mistake I personally made
           25 years ago. Twenty-five years ago, I thought demand was going to go up fast
           and that was wrong, I thought that oil prices were going to 100, and that was
           wrong, and I thought the OPEC was omnipotent, and that was wrong, and I thought
           that supplies basically were going to be a pot of gold and that was wrong, and
           what I learned personally is to never trust "conventional wisdom." And by the
           time all thirteen speakers had spoken, it was clear that their belief had
           become conventional wisdom. It turned out that basically the generals, as
           happens so often in the military, were fighting the last war. The big energy
           mistake that was made, circa 1980-1981, was that oil was going to go to 100,
           was that the demand growth was insatiable, and that OPEC was omnipotent. And
           what all these people missed at the time was that the oil prices had already
           grown tenfold; that nuclear energy was at the front door, that the fear of a
           hundred dollar oil had finally created a conservational efficiency move and
           that a ten-year E.P. [environmental protection movement] movement created a
           surplus glut. And preventing making this mistake again became public enemy
           number one and literally led a generation of energy experts to mistrust demand,
           to assume supply growth and just to know that price collapse was just around
           the door, the corner. 

           But it is interesting now with the benefits of being in a new millennium, to
           look back and see what really happened to oil demand over the last 30 years.
           First of all, global oil demand did fall in 1974 and half way through 1975. But
           over the course of the first eight years of the 1970's, global oil demand grew
           significantly. Global oil demand then fell in 1979 through 1983. And so you
           had five of thirteen years down but the two events that caused this down demand
           were a tenfold increase in product and the introduction of the only new energy
           source native to the 20th century; nuclear. Global oil demand began to grow
           again in 1983. The collapse of the F.S.U. from 1988 to 1995 created the
           illusion of global stagnation while the rest of the world's oil demand and
           energy just grew and grew and grew. 

           And it's interesting to step back and look at the difference between 1986
           when non-FSU oil demand was just under 54 million barrels a day, to 2002, when
           we crossed 73 million barrels a day... a 21 million barrel a day change during
           an era that people thought basically that demand growth was over.

           And then let's turn briefly to what happened to the world's supply. Well,
           first the former Soviet Union supply collapsed. Secondly, the North Sea had its
           second boom. Third, deep water became the new frontier and probably the last
           frontier, and fourth, OPEC remained the swing producer. If you basically look
           at the non-OPEC numbers excluding the former Soviet Union, you basically have a
           growth between '86 and 2002 of 8.3 million barrels a day. Now it's interesting
           to see that global oil growth and demand was 20 and non OPEC non-FSU growth was
           8.3. But if you look carefully at the 8.3, in the first ten years, '86 thru
           '96, during an era of low oil prices, we grew by 6.7 million barrels a day, and
           in the last six years, during the era of high oil prices, we grew by 1.5
           million barrels a day. So 81% of the last fifteen years growth, came in the,
           sixteen years growth, came during the era of low prices, and 19% came during
           the era of high prices. It turns out with just hindsight that we can now
           clearly see that the growth engine of non-OPEC oil, excluding the former Soviet
           Union petered out. The North Sea peaked, Latin America excluding Brazil peaked,
           North America, excluding heavy oil peaked, Africa excluding deep water peaked,
           the middle east excluding OPEC peaked, and the F.S.U. turned out the be the
           only lasting pleasant surprise.

           Which then raises the following question: Was the F.S.U. recovery real and
           sustainable? In 1998-1999 not a single oil expert assumed that the F.S.U. would
           suddenly turn around and start creating supplies again. But then low oil prices
           created through the saga of the missing barrels caused the ruble to collapse.
           And subsequently high oil prices created an F.S.U. bonanza, low global prices
           and unbelievably high revenues. 67% of the 2000-2003 non OPEC supply came with
           the F.S.U.'s oil recovery. Some of this increase was unlikely due to bad data
           and some of the increase was a one time gain.

           There has been no significant FSU exploration yet. It's simply too expensive.
           And logistical bottlenecks create some significant limits to further export
           growth. So I think it's dangerous to assume that the FSU growth will continue.
           In the meantime the cost to create new oil supply soared. 

           While conventional wisdom believes where there's a will there's a supply,
           real costs to maintaining flattening supplies soared. Between 1996 and 1999,
           the 145 Public E&P companies which were worldwide, spent 410 Billion Dollars to
           merely keep their full production flat at about 30 Million barrels of oil per
           day. The Big Five, Exxon, Shell, BP, ChevronTexaco, and Total spent 150 Billion
           dollars between 1999 and 2002 to barely grow production from 16 billion barrels
           of oil a day to about 16.6. 

           The Big Four, excluding Total, because there numbers weren't out yet, between
           the first quarter of 2002 and the first quarter of 2003 went from 14 million,
           611 thousand barrels of oil equivalent per day to 14 billion 544. These four
           companies spent collectively over 40 billion dollars over a 12 month period of
           time actually lost 67 thousand barrels a day of total production. So while
           people were assuming costs would fall the cost to stay in the game went through
           the roof. 

           One of the other interesting mantras of the last decade was that technology
           had eliminated dry holes. Well we never came close to obsoleting the dry hole.
           The reason dry holes dropped so much is we drill far less wells. We also
           stopped doing most genuine exploration. Even projects that are called wildcats
           today probably 20 years ago were called modest step-outs. It turns out that now
           that we look back with good data it takes four straight dry holes, it is still
           a risky business. The U.S. statistics are appalling. Here basically is the
           table going back from 1973 to 2002 of U.S. exploratory success rates and their
           dry holes as a percentage, and this yellow one going through there is 67%
           meaning that two out of three of those failed. We modestly drop the line from
           about 75% down to 67% but two third failure rate, we've just killed building
           dry holes. The North Sea exploration, in appraisal statistics is still
           basically about 25% chance of success. Angola, of the major Block 17's has had
           a string of dry holes. Eastern Canada's recent statistics have been
           troublesome. 

           The Caspian Sea, other than one great discovery, potentially has been bad.
           And even the Middle East is starting to dig a remarkable string of dry holes.
           The single biggest reason that this supply surge that so many people assumed
           was happening for so long was that depletion became the missing link. The
           reason supply flattened out or peaked was not the lack of effort and no new
           technology. The industry in fact had many great successes over the last decade.
           But they were not about to offset depletion. Oil field technology created not
           an easy way to grow supply but a depletion rat race. Smaller new fields were
           found, technology allowed them to be commercial but we raised the climb rate to
           an amazing level and therefore it began to flatten out. 

           Why is oil depletion so hard to grasp? Well the definition by itself is
           hard. Many would hear the term depletion and assume it meant that we ran out,
           and we obviously never ran out of oil. Depletion data was sketchy at best. Its
           amazing how hard it is to actually dig out statistics for, even on a field by
           field basis, what the net decline is. And the elusive data that you can find is
           not real depletion but it's actually the net decline after lots of additional
           drilling and money is spent to take a natural decline rate that would have been
           far more drastic if you flattened out. And finally no one really likes to
           discuss it much because it should generally mean bad news. 

===================================================================
part 2 in next post

Forecasting next year’s decline still remains an art form. I don’t think
anyone has ever been very good at predicting bad news. There are many ways also
to slow natural decline, but it takes money and effort, and it’s only when you
look back, after these remediation efforts have been done that it creates real
depletion answers. But let me tell you that as you all know, wells, fields and
basins really do deplete. Our firm a year ago conducted a very intensive
analysis of what was happening to the natural gas supply in Texas by examining
the detailed records of the Texas Drill Commission from 50% of the state’s
production in 53 counties. What we found was amazing. What we found was that in
this 53 county area (this is 16% of the U.S. gas supply) the wells drilled in
2001, 2400 wells out of 37,000 wells that are in production created 30% of the
total supply, and it turns out that 7% of these 2400 wells, 167 wells, created
49% of the supply and the other 93% of the wells created the remaining 51%.
These giant 167 gas wells - a year later, we went back and tested their January
03 production; they had suffered a decline across the board of an average of
82% in a year, so wells do decline rapidly these days. The Cruz Beana field in
Columbia, the biggest find in the Western Hemisphere since Prudhoe Bay, in
1991-92 it was still estimated that it could possibly exceed Prudhoe Bay or
Hatchet. But it turns out that this field basically just barely gets 500,000
barrels a day. And in 2002 it’s struggling to stay above 200,000 barrels a day.
The Forty Field, which BP just recently sold to Apache peaked at approximately
500,000 barrels a day in the middle eighties and the oil production is now
under 50,000 barrels a day. It still produces about 500,000 barrels a day of
fluid, but the balance is processed water.

           And then you finally have the interesting graph, that's in the papers that I
           think you should have of the last two Super Giant fields ever found. Ironically
           these two fields, Prudhoe Bay and Samotlor, were both found in about the same
           crust underneath of the Arctic Ocean. They were just found on two sides of the
           earth. Both were basically found within twelve months of one another, '68 and
           1967, both were presumed to have 15 to 20 billion barrels of oil. It's
           interesting to see that Prudhoe Bay, says Platt's Oil reservoir management,
           they basically choked off the field at 1.5 million barrels a day and for over
           11 and almost 12 years, like clockwork, it produced 1.5 million barrels a day
           without missing a beat. But in late 1989 the field rolled over and is now
           producing about 350,000 barrels a day. Samotlor [Russia] had just the opposite
           experience. They basically started aggressively water-flooding a very wide
           field and it produced peak production at about 3 and a half million barrels a
           day and then came off like a water fall and is again down to 325,000 to 350,000
           barrels a day. And so when giant fields do peak they basically also do decline.
           There's no question that when you take 50% of a remaining resource you tend to
           alter peak. What is difficult though is to obtain the right data to know
           whether you've reached fifty percent. And it's basically that you're looking
           back through events with hindsight. It turns out that total energy resources,
           uh, is still a mystery. And recoverable percentage of resources is also largely
           a function of cost. The higher the cost the more you can extend, recovering
           more and more of the harder and harder to get resources.

           And it's also interesting when I think back on this that the technology to
           gauge resources, absent of seismic, is still effectively 100 years old. We have
           no better technology today to know how much resources are there before seismic
           is done than we had 100 years ago. And even after a few of them test their
           research you still leave many questions and so it's based on opinions. Let me
           give you some interesting examples of the uncertainness of this data. I
           attended a Natural Gas Workshop in Washington, D.C. about three weeks ago and
           the head of the U.S.G.S. made an interesting presentation about how hard it is
           to basically get experts all on the same page even when you have a complete set
           of data. One of his examples was the [unintelligible] basin in Argentina. 

           Two hundred and nineteen mature fields. They had a data set that allowed all
           of the experts to basically use any one of the 7 conventional methodologies to
           say how much remaining resources are there. And after a weekend of study the
           estimates came back with a low of 600 million barrels to recover to a high of
           17 billion barrels. This is on a mature field area with 219 individual fields.
           Canada's recent experience in Sable Island is a classic example of how little
           you sometimes know even after the fields have been in mature stages of
           production. It turns out that Sable Island looked like a fabulous project
           through wells one through five, and then well six was drilled and they found
           basically it was little, they miscalculated the amount of reserves and so
           thirty seven percent of the proven reserves of Sable Island in the last few
           months were written off. The Leaden Field, which is the largest project in U.K.
           sector of the North Sea last year; six months into its production the company
           had new data that basically highlighted the reserves, the reservoirs complexity
           so that half the reserves were transferred from proven into probable. 

           And then another interesting presentation in the natural gas workshop in
           Washington was on center basin gas which basically pipes gas in the Green River
           basin where some new evidence would indicate that we've overstated potential
           recoverable reserves by three to five times.

           All of which highlights how difficult it is to basically get your hands
           around how much is left until you're looking back at events with hindsight. 
           Hindsight turns out to be a wonderful, unreliable tool. Some events are
           unpredictable until after the fact. Some of the classic unpredictable events
           turn out to be weather, death, one's peak net worth and maybe the future of
           anything important. It turns out that peaking even for an individual well is
           only proven after the fact. And predicting peaking of energy has been an
           elusive art form for a long period of time. So back to the United States of
           America and our experiences in oil as a classic example of how hard it is to
           predict peaks. In 1956 Dr. Hubbert predicted in the early seventies... in the
           early seventies the United States would peak. In 1970 it was obvious he was
           wrong when the U.S. set a new record, the new U.S. peak. In 1981, what had been
           9.6 million barrels by, at its peak was already down to 6.9 million barrels a
           day after a record drilling boom. And by 2003 this 9.6 billion barrel basin in
           1970 is now close to 3 million barrels a day. The U.S. was Saudi Arabia in
           1956. We had great statistics, we had total transparency and yet only one
           person predicted the peaking in 1970. Did the United States get a lot smarter?
           Well the U.S. Natural Gas experience is a great new case study. 

           In 1999 the Natural Petroleum Council projected that supply growth in natural
           gas would be adequate to increase gas use by 36% by 2010. In 2001 we had a
           record drilling boom for Natural Gas. This failed to budge supply. In 2003
           natural gas clearly faces a crisis. The United States and Canada is in decline. 

           What we all missed in 1999 was that no one could come to subtract
           unconventional supply growth, coal bed methanes, tar sands, deep water
           associated gas, and these giant gas wells down to 18 to 20 thousand feet
           vertical, from the conventional base, and discovered conventional base at about
           fifty feet... (unintelligible) [p]eaked through Europe in the nineties and is
           now approximately 35 BCF (Billions of Cubic Feet) a day. So it turns out the
           United States gas experience, uh, has experienced about the same phenomena that
           oil did 30 years ago.

           The North Sea experience is interesting. The North Sea had all the worlds'
           best operators, state of the art technology. Its peak was assumed to be years
           away in 1996 and 97. In 1999 the U.K. Sector peaked. In 2002 the New Eastern
           sector peaked. The North Sea has the world's best field by field production
           data. Seeing peaking is easier in the North Sea than anywhere else but few
           people seem to study the data. Peaking, it turns out, even in the North Sea is
           easy to ignore. And then there's the experience of the Caspian Sea.

           In the early nineties the Caspian seemed to be the next Middle East. In 2001
           we had 20 out of 25 dry holes that dampened the enthusiasm for the Caspian
           significantly. In 2001 Kashagan was finally discovered, deemed to be the
           greatest field in the decade. In 2002 BP and Stat Oil quietly sold their 14% of
           Kashagan for 800 million dollars. In 2003 British Gas put their 17% on the
           block for 1.2 billion dollars. Which raises, in my opinion, the question, "What
           do these original parties know about the world's greatest field or do they
           merely want to spread the wealth? I think what this all means is that non-OPEC
           oil, particularly outside the Soviet Union, is either peaking as we speak, or
           has already peaked. [emphasis in original]

           Any serious analysis now shows solid evidence that the non-F.S.U. non-OPEC
           oil has certainly petered out and has probably peaked. F.S.U.'s supply is
           suspect or should be. A new frontier is always a possibility but it is becoming
           increasingly unlikely now that deep water is basically here and come and gone. 

           And serious energy planners need to assume non-OPEC supply is at a plateau.
           But thank heavens for the Middle East. The big non-Middle East OPEC producers
           are also past the peak. Algeria and Libya could probably still grow but they're
           too small to offset everyone else. And only the Middle East can logically be
           explained to replace declines elsewhere. [emphasis in original]

           The Middle East's transparency is an oxymoron but there are some data that
           shed some light. And so let's basically spend a few minutes looking at the
           Middle East, the Promised Land. 

           Middle East energy is the Promised Land. All roads the roads lead to Rome and
           to the future of oil and gas Rome is the Middle East. [emphasis in original]

           The Middle East is where we still have abundant reserves. It's still cheap to
           produce; it's still extremely unexplored. So if the rest the world is long in
           the tooth thank Allah for Mecca. But are we so sure this is the truth? It turns
           out that the Middle East oil and gas so far is not all over the Middle East.
           [emphasis in original] The Middle East covers an enormous land mass, but all of
           the oil and gas as we know it today is compressed into an interesting golden
           triangle. And all the great finds happened years ago. In the past three decades
           exploration success has been modest in the Middle East abyss. Is this because
           no one looked very hard or because there's not much else to find? Here is the
           interesting golden triangle of the Middle East; If you start at Kirkuk in the
           north and you draw a line down through the great oil fields of Iran, going down
           south and come over six or seven hundred miles picking up the great fields of
           the UAE and come back up 800 miles to Kirkuk virtually every field of any size
           between 1909 and the late sixties is probably in that basin. 

           It turns out that Saudi Arabia has what they thought was a fabulous discovery
           outside that in 1989. By 2003 one field and five satellites needed gas injected
           to create flows to get about 200,000 barrels a day. So it's also interesting to
           take the United States and superimpose this same golden triangle on part of the
           United States on the part of the United States I grew up in. It basically
           covers most of Arizona and part of Utah, so it's not a very big area. [emphasis
           in original] So if all roads lead to Rome then one area, Saudi Arabia, is
           clearly home port. Saudi Arabia became the most important oil exporter once the
           U.S. peaked. Though also not trusted, Saudi Arabia has constantly tried to
           become the world's most trusted supplier of oil and they generally have done
           that. Saudi Arabia has assumed a virtually limitless amount of cheap oil. But
           let me tell you about some of Saudi Arabia's oil and gas challenges. In Saudi
           Arabia there have been no major exploration successes since the late sixties.
           Almost all of Saudi's production comes from a handful of very old fields.
           Almost every field has high and rising water pressure. Ghawar, the world's
           largest field injects seven million barrels a day of seawater to prop up
           reservoir pressure. And outside North Core hundred barrel [unintelligible] have
           been very hard to find. Some key fields have never worked out. Others have now
           watered out. And it takes utter logic to plan for Saudi Arabia's future. 

           What Saudi Arabia's real energy costs might be is that Saudi Arabia is
           probably no longer a low cost producer. Lifting costs, plus, may now rise
           exponentially. Natural gas parting costs are extremely high and have been
           elusive. But what is Saudi Arabia's right price for oil? I would argue that no
           one really knows because we lack the data. 

           But it turns out with a little bit of hindsight that the optimists turned out
           to be wrong. While the optimists estimate, the economist rectifies, the debate
           still rages on; the jury basically has now rendered the verdict. The optimists
           have lost. Too much field data now proves their total thesis was wrong. Supply
           never surged, demand did grow. But as it grows it still falls. This doesn't
           prove though that the pessimists were right. The pessimists unfortunately and
           ironically might also be wrong. Most serious scientists worry that the world
           will peak in oil supply. But most assume that this day of reckoning is still
           years away. Many also assume that non-conventional oil will carry us through
           several additional decades. They were right to ring the alarm bell. But they
           too might also be too optimistic. Non-conventional oil unfortunately is too
           non-conventional. Light oil is easy to produce and convert into usable energy.
           Heavy oil is hard to produce and extremely energy intensive and very hard to
           grow rapidly. It turns out the United States of America has nine fields left
           that still produce over 100,000 barrels a day. And three of the nine have
           turned out to be located in California and on average are 103 years old. The
           reason these fields are still there is that they're very heavy oil. And heavy
           oil can last forever but it's very hard to get out of the ground. And it takes
           a remarkable amount of energy to convert heavy oil into usable energy. 
           [emphasis in original]

           Five years ago I barely had thought about the question of, "What does peaking
           mean and when might it occur?" I was intending at the time though to study the
           concept of depletion and the phenomenon that field after field was tending to
           peak fast and decline at rates that were unheard of before. The uh, uh, I think
           basically that now, that peaking of oil will never be accurately predicted
           until after the fact. But the event will occur, and my analysis is leaning me
           more by the month, the worry that peaking is at hand; not years away. If it
           turns out I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But if I'm right, the unforeseen
           consequences are devastating [emphasis in original]

           But unfortunately the world has no Plan B if I'm right. The facts are too
           serious to ignore. Sadly the pessimist-optimist debate started too late. The
           Club of Rome humanists were right to raise the 'Limits to Growth' issues in the
           late 1960's. When they raised these issues they were actually talking about a
           time frame of 2050 to 2070. Then time was on the side of preparing Plan B. They
           like Dr. Hubbert got to be seen as Chicken Little or the Boy Who Cried Wolf... 
           [emphasis in original]

=========================================
part 3 includes q and a

In 1957 the Sputnik woke up to the rest of the world. By 1969 we had a man on
the moon. That was not easy, but the job got done. Could an energy Sputnik
create a similar wake up call? If we had such a wake up call is it too late? Is
there a Manhattan Project or an Apollo program that would work? It turns out
that reliable energy is the world’s number one issue. Creating reliable and
affordable energy opens the door to solving the problem of the world’s water,
food, and healthcare. Without reliable energy all these other needs dull.

           The world is still growing. There five billion people on the earth today that
           are still either maturing in age or yet to be that old. And five billion people
           still use little or no energy. If the world's oil supply does peak, the world's
           issues start to look very different. Thank heaven the debate began even if it
           might have been too late. Thank you. I'd be happy to answer any questions. 

           Questions and Answers (not verbatim)

           Hi. I'm Steve Andrews. Given your message now and given that you've had a
           half hour in the Oval Office with president Bush, why is there such a
           disconnect between the apparent policy of the administration and the harsh
           reality of the message you just gave this audience? 

           A. I think that there are people within the Bush Administration including
           the President and Vice President... I think it was unbelievably discouraging
           to see what occurred after the Bush Energy Plan was introduced .... And then
           after 9/11, the administration got totally distracted in dealing with all the
           events that they've been dealing with since then. I will tell you that there
           is a growing genuine concern in Washington about what is happening with natural
           gas today. 

           Q. I've been reading your papers for the last two years, and I want to
           congratulate you on really good work, and in many cases it's work that I would
           have expected from a gas company, not from an investment banker. Last year,
           you defended the administration's concept of depletion...and you show a real
           genuine concern for the future of the world,... and the hydrogen proposal is
           really a fantasy, don't you think it is time for a more enlightened energy
           policy.

           A. That would be wonderful but I think that it is going to take a while. 
           There really aren't any good energy solutions for bridges, to buy some time,
           from oil and gas to the alternatives. The only alternative right now is to
           shrink our economies. [emphasis in original] This is a tough question and I
           have no answers.

           Q. I know that you are on the books to bring back nuclear power back into
           the industry.

           A. Positive news. The Yucca Mountain is not complete. We have to figure
           out how to remove the nuclear waste. The bad news is that we have had one bad
           accident in Ohio and one in South Texas in which they found some borax acid
           that had become powder...is this a defect in the Westinghouse design. These
           are things which could set nuclear back 5 to 10 years. 

           Q. Mike Ruppert, From The Wilderness -- In the Baker Institute-CFR Report
           from April, 2001, you were kind of dissenting and you called for a Manhattan
           Project-type investment, what would that entail?

           Q. Second question - In the war on terrorism since 9/11, we have gone to
           Afghanistan, and we've seen some pipeline development across Afghanistan, we've
           seen Iraq, now Saudi Arabia, developments in West Africa, also in Colombia
           where the terrorism coincidentally seems to appear exactly where the oil is or
           in the swing producing nations, do you believe that is all coincidental?
           (Laughter)

           A. (More laughter) Those are pretty intelligent questions. What I
           encourage people to think about in terms of energy blueprints is to think about
           them in terms of the Marshall Plan. I still believe that there is an urgent
           need for an energy Marshall plan. And couple that with a water energy program.
           I don't know if you can draw any parallels that every place we have energy we
           also have terrorism other than just musing about the fact that all I the last
           twenty years while we have apparently benefited from these unbelievably low
           bargain basement prices, the prices were so low that none of the host nations
           were able to basically create any semblance of a modern society, and over a
           20-year period of time, all of their populations exploded, they all have high
           birthrate, very young people, and terrible economies. Unfortunately, we ended
           up with the door prize that was so low that it was hard for them to maintain a
           company infrastructure and doing nothing to start rebuilding their societies. 
           I suspect that had they been lucky enough to have had energy ...two or three
           times higher and then worked carefully with these producing countries to be
           enlightened about how... instead of putting in some young and powerful leaders
           to start creating a middle class... and people would have started focusing more
           on how to become more prosperous. I guess in hindsight that is easy to say.

Here is a very interesting argument from a biology/ecology perspective

http://www.dieoff.com/page137.htm

** adamant ** - DON’T DO THAT !!! - 15 screens of text is a bullshit post. Please link in the future.

(sorry about the anger)

** Blake ** - It’s weird when something like that happens. Here I’ve been banging on about all sorts of shite for weeks, and then whap - I come up with a decent, relevant point…

I surprise myself sometimes…

:slight_smile:

** adamant** your PDF link is dead and I can resurrect it.

I haven’t read the transcript of Simmons’ presentation in detail. I have skimmed it and thought I’d post hopefully before you vanish into the ether for another 24 hours.

Thanks for posting that, even if it is damn long. I trust it isn’t copyright material. You might want to make an comment to this effect just so the mods don’t delete it.

I’m starting to like Simmons. Thanks for introducing us to him. He’s a pessimist, but by far the most honest of them. He admits he doesn’t have any compelling reasons for his predictions. He makes clear the folly of being too blasé on the potential of energy decline, and he does so without rhetoric or doomsaying evidenced by so many pessimists with other agenda, as evidenced in outofgas’s post above. As you say, his viewpoints are very alarming. At the same time he manages not to be alarmist.

I note that Simmons himself does not predict any timeframe. Indeed he seems fairly unconcerned with any timeframe, he is more worried that not enough effort is being put into counteracting the serious negative effects if he worst of the credible pessimists are right and the supply does peak in 30 years time. This is the same message I got from his website. He is very concerned that we need to invest more in gas rigs, pipelines and exploration in preparation for a potential peak occurring in the short term. Throughout the transcript you provided Simmons repeatedly refers to ‘if a peak arrives’ rather than when it arrives. He seems largely unconcerned with predicting when the peak might be.

This is a very important attitude, and it’s kind of reassuring that we have someone like Simmons out there pushing this message intelligently and dispassionately. It’s a very important message, and I would be a fool to suggest otherwise. I thank you again for bringing this man’s thoughts to my attention.

Do you have a complete reference for that presentation. I can see it being potentially very useful.

** adamant** your PDF link is dead and I can resurrect it.

I haven’t read the transcript of Simmons’ presentation in detail. I have skimmed it and thought I’d post hopefully before you vanish into the ether for another 24 hours.

Thanks for posting that, even if it is damn long. I trust it isn’t copyright material. You might want to make a comment to this effect just so the mods don’t delete it.

I’m starting to like Simmons. Thanks for introducing us to him. He’s a pessimist, but by far the most honest of them. He admits he doesn’t have any compelling reasons for his predictions. He makes clear the folly of being too blasé on the potential of energy decline, and he does so without rhetoric or doomsaying evidenced by so many pessimists with other agenda, as evidenced in outofgas’s post above. As you say, his viewpoints are very alarming. At the same time he manages not to be alarmist.

I note that Simmons himself does not predict any timeframe. Indeed he seems fairly unconcerned with any timeframe, he is more worried that not enough effort is being put into counteracting the serious negative effects if he worst of the credible pessimists are right and the supply does peak in 30 years time. This is the same message I got from his website. He is very concerned that we need to invest more in gas rigs, pipelines and exploration in preparation for a potential peak occurring in the short term. Throughout the transcript you provided Simmons repeatedly refers to ‘if a peak arrives’ rather than when it arrives. He seems largely unconcerned with predicting when the peak might be.

This is a very important attitude, and it’s kind of reassuring that we have someone like Simmons out there pushing this message intelligently and dispassionately. It’s a very important message, and I would be a fool to suggest otherwise. I thank you again for bringing this man’s thoughts to my attention.

Do you have a complete reference for that presentation. I can see it being potentially very useful.

outofgas that site is just more environmentalist hysteia. No susbstance. No facts. Much rhetoric. Far more severe than even the most pessimistic of the real predictions by real economoists and geologists.

I think you would be well advised to ignore that site.

Sorry Everyone!
I should have - but I didn’t have time to hunt up the link or (better) just take parts of the long talk and quote a few paragraphs (poor excuse I know).

I will be more careful in the future.

SImply not true. The site includes exhaustive references which includes documentation from many industry sights.

For example, here is a link to this BP 2003 world energy report which shows that world oil production actually fell in 2001 and 2002. Has the peak already passed? As has already been stated elsewhere in this discussion we will only know in hindsight when this event occurs.

http://www.bp.com/centres/energy/index.asp

World oil production rises and falls constantly basedon OPEC decisions.

[quote]
World oil production rises and falls constantly basedon OPEC decisions.[/quote/

Yup thats a valid expaination but its certainly not the only one.

Here is a link to some more interesting comments by Matthew Simmons:

http://www.gulland.ca/depletion/simmons.htm

What other agenda do I have?

I was reading an interview recently with a farmer in the kalamuth basin, this farmer refered to the concept of sustainability as “an agenda”. Thats very interesting. It seems to imply that unsustainable growth, environmental devistation and plain greed are not agendas???

Blake also seems to imply that I have an agenda but that he does not. Its like the corporate media telling me that they have an unbiased viewpoint.

Here is a pdf from the Colorado School of Mines which takes issue with the USGS study that Blake is quoting http://hubbert.mines.edu/news/Campbell_02-3.pdf

Blake - sorry for the late return to this forum - I was on a great vacation all last week.

Here is Simmons’ basic site - from there you can click on speeches - then get the latest one (June 4th) to see what he is talking about recently.

Basically he is implying that we might actually be at peak production now - and gives some indications from current data that OPEC and especially Saudi Arabia might be closer to their peak as well due to rising water levels and other factors.

Here are the links :

http://www.hubbertpeak.com/

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/

Note this link is a group on yahoo - you have to join to see the group stuff (but it is free). The message board is interesting with lots of talk from pessimists and optimists, scientists and lay people.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/061203_simmons.html

This site above had the written simmons presentation.

This site has some recent speeches/presentations from a conference on oil depletion.

http://www.odac-info.org/

This one has some good links.

Well, just wanted to get this topic back on track - I still am partly optimistic - but I get more depressed the more information that I read from reliable sources and more and more mainstream articles and books (like Duffeye’s “Hubbert’s Peak” - he is a professor at Princeton and worked for years for Shell Oil).

It is hot here in NC - our electricity meter works as a fan while the A/c runs all the time!

I look forward to future debate/discussion on this matter.

Regards

adamant

An update for this topic:

“World crude production 2013 without shale oil is back to 2005 levels”

So far, what Hubbert predicted has taken place:

That is, conventional production peaking in 1995 + 10 years, or 2005. This was confirmed by the IEA four years ago:

“It’s official: Peak oil came in 2006”

http://transitionvoice.com/2010/11/its-official-peak-oil-came-in-2006/

Shale oil is not expected to last:

“U.S. Shale-Oil Boom May Not Last as Fracking Wells Lack Staying Power”

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-10/u-dot-s-dot-shale-oil-boom-may-not-last-as-fracking-wells-lack-staying-power

but has to increase to deal with increasing global consumption:

“Peak Oil Demand is Already a Huge Problem”

and the expected decrease of conventional production.

Finally, a global transition process will take decades:

“It Will Take 131 Years To Replace Oil, And We’ve Only Got 10”

everything has its limit of being exhausted

its just depends at what will replace it …

and with the limit supply of oil ( someday it will happen ), some individuals in the world will do anything to stay on top and not wanting to change their life style …

Instead of trying to tackle YouTube videos and basically Peak Oil web sites, I’ll just post this alternative view (and actually quote from it instead of sound bites and drive by links):

If it’s TL&DR, the short answer is that as the price point of oil moves up, reserves that were not economically feasible open up, as do other alternatives. It’s ridiculous to posit that we’ll be out of oil in 10 years but it will take us 131 to replace it. Both the assertion that we’ll be out of oil in 10 years AND the assertion that it would take us 131 is pure horseshit, and the standard spewage from the Peak Oil crowd.