# The end of the suburbs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055 "2010-05-11T15:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/61 "2010-05-12T18:09:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Or in other words, you said in the other thread “all white burbs suck” wasnt a common theme. And someone called you on your shit. Bullshit. I am only claiming that it is wasn’t anyone’s main objection, and certainly not everyone’s main objection. I don’t claim that it didn’t come up at all. There were too many other issues discussed about suburbs, in this and other threads for you guys to get away with bringing up some year-old butthurt because a few people said they didn’t want to live in the middle of a homogenous sea of white. Apology accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/62 "2010-05-12T18:15:33Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Bullshit. I am only claiming that it is wasn’t anyone’s main objection, and certainly not everyone’s main objection. I don’t claim that it didn’t come up at all. There were too many other issues discussed about suburbs, in this and other threads for you guys to get away with bringing up some year-old butthurt because a few people said they didn’t want to live in the middle of a homogenous sea of white. Apology accepted. But as this thread proves, it wasn’t true then, and it isn’t true now. The suburbs are very diverse, yet somehow, that also shows “the end of the suburbs.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/63 "2010-05-12T18:24:26Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Bullshit. I am only claiming that it is wasn’t anyone’s main objection, and certainly not everyone’s main objection. . Well, it sure as hell came up alot for such a trivial side issue. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/64 "2010-05-12T18:30:24Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But as this thread proves, it wasn’t true then, and it isn’t true now. The suburbs are very diverse, yet somehow, that also shows “the end of the suburbs.” The previous thread wasn’t how suburbs are dying, it was about how suburbs suck. Posters may have wished the suburbs to end but were not preducting it. This is another thread, which does somewhat say that the suburb phenomenon is decreasing. So, no, people have not used two different pieces of evidence to prove the end of the suburbs, because they weren’t using non-diversity to prove the end of the suburbs in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/65 "2010-05-12T18:35:34Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But why? Do you honestly believe the suburbs will just disappear? Nope. But their demographics will change, to the frustration of all the racially paranoid suburbanites I encounter. Atlanta’s suburban counties have in the past rejected the extension of MARTA’s rail lines, largely out of racial fear. And now look what’s happening to those formerly lily-white suburbs. I just think it’s funny, in a karmic way. > [@](#): > > Beyond that, the linked article is nothing more than NIMBYism about more brown people moving into the burbs. The horror! You say that as though there are no suburbanites who are horrified at the idea of brown people moving in next door. Trust me, such suburbanites do exist, and in considerable numbers. This is their come-uppance. > [@](#): > > The article also said that poor people are still more likely to live in the city. So I really don’t understand all this head scratching about what will the poor suburban folks do because they’re so poor. I can only speak for Atlanta, but here, a fair number of the poor have shifted out of the city and into the ring counties. So yes, those people (at least the ones who still work in the city) _will_ have to worry about commuting expense. This problem was recently highlighted when suburban Clayton County (now mostly poor and working-class black) [lost its bus service connection to MARTA](http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/01/nation/la-na-georgia-bus1-2010apr01). That means commuters who live there are going to be left with the expensive option of driving into the city. So yes, as gas prices rise, I do wonder how they will afford it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/66 "2010-05-12T18:37:28Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So, no, people have not used two different pieces of evidence to prove the end of the suburbs, because they weren’t using non-diversity to prove the end of the suburbs in the first place. Are you deliberately not understanding me? The other thread was about how much suburbs suck. People said it was because there wasn’t any diversity. This thread is about how suburbs are dying. One of the big reasons given in the OP is that they’re not all-white anymore. I think it’s amusing that the people in the year-old thread were wrong. The suburbs are diverse, so that reason for hating them, even back then, wasn’t valid. And in this thread, I fail to see how diversity proves suburbs must be ending. The whole country got more diverse in the last decade! So the whole debate seems really fucking stupid. > [@spoke-](#): > > You say that as though there are no suburbanites who are horrified at the idea of brown people moving in next door. Trust me, such suburbanites do exist, and in considerable numbers. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/67 "2010-05-12T18:42:10Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > This is another thread, which does somewhat say that the suburb phenomenon is decreasing. > > . So, do the burbs become less burby because they are getting a higher percentage of non-white low paid people? And if the burbs are becoming economically unviable, WTF are POORer people moving there? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/68 "2010-05-12T18:48:24Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Cite? Are you serious? As though there were statistical data on racist suburbanites? All I know is what I hear. Which is plenty of racist comments from suburbanites about the city proper. Example: a common “joke” among suburbanites here is that MARTA stands for “Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta.” [Here’s a cite](http://www.wsbtv.com/politics/16896419/detail.html) for Cobb County and Gwinnett County voters in the past rejecting the extension of MARTA rail into their counties. I really don’t have to guess why. I heard enough comments from residents of those counties at the time to understand full well. The beautiful irony is that both of those counties now have burgeoning black populations. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/69 "2010-05-12T18:49:32Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And if the burbs are becoming economically unviable, WTF are POORer people moving there? They’re being squeezed out when the families with money come back into the city and turn the formerly poor neighborhoods into gentrification projects. Restoring the vintage housing raises property values, which pushes the poor families out. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/70 "2010-05-12T18:55:46Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > They’re being squeezed out when the families with money come back into the city and turn the formerly poor neighborhoods into gentrification projects. Restoring the vintage housing raises property values, which pushes the poor families out. Wait, I thought cities were more economically viable. But now you are telling me that they are more expensive and people can buy more for less out in the burbs. Gosh, I wonder why even some white people might want to live out there. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/71 "2010-05-12T18:57:06Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Are you serious? As though there were statistical data on racist suburbanites? All I know is what I hear. Which is plenty of racist comments from suburbanites about the city proper. Example: a common “joke” among suburbanites here is that MARTA stands for “Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta.” That is so NOT true. Its Randomly. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/72 "2010-05-12T18:59:18Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > They’re being squeezed out when the families with money come back into the city and turn the formerly poor neighborhoods into gentrification projects. Restoring the vintage housing raises property values, which pushes the poor families out. That, and some cities are removing public housing, largely in response to pressure from developers and the (very well organized) new urban gentry. [Cite](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=87964901): > [@](#): > > Some residents of Atlanta’s remaining public housing complexes are fighting proposals to tear down their homes. Since 1994, Atlanta has steadily demolished dilapidated public housing to make way for mixed-income projects. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/73 "2010-05-12T19:15:08Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > They’re being squeezed out when the families with money come back into the city and turn the formerly poor neighborhoods into gentrification projects. Restoring the vintage housing raises property values, which pushes the poor families out. Which is why people moved to the suburbs in the first place, because they could get better housing for less money. And while I have no doubt that there are plenty of racist suburbanites, there are plenty of racist urban dwellers too. Whether city dwellers are less racist than suburb dwellers or country dwellers I couldn’t say, but it sure ain’t like urban people are islands of enlightenment in a sea of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/74 "2010-05-12T22:33:42Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > And while I have no doubt that there are plenty of racist suburbanites, there are plenty of racist urban dwellers too. Maybe the distribution is different in different parts of the country, but in _these_ parts white city dwellers _on average_ seem much more apt to be racially open-minded than white suburbanites. There is some self-selection going on there. If you weren’t comfortable with black people, you wouldn’t move into the city. By this, I certainly don’t mean to imply that all suburbanites, or even a majority of suburbanites, are racist-- only that they are more likely to be racist than city dwellers. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/75 "2010-05-12T22:40:45Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Maybe the distribution is different in different parts of the country, but in _these_ parts white city dwellers _on average_ seem much more apt to be racially open-minded than white suburbanites. There is some self-selection going on there. If you weren’t comfortable with black people, you wouldn’t move into the city. > > . But wait, arent the suburbarnites going to be surrounded by all these new non white people while the city folks are going to overwhelmed by the influx of white people? So, the white suburbanites will become less racist and the urbanites should become more racist because of exposure or lack of to the “right people” right? Or even better, all the racist suburbanites will flee to the city, both displacing the unworthy darkies and making the CITIES the new bastion of rich white racists. Wasn’t that a major part of all the hatred for the suburbs in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/76 "2010-05-12T23:05:18Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > People also seem to be assuming that everybody who lives in the suburbs works in the city and commutes. Not so. I live and work in the same suburb – a nice short drive, no tolls, no traffic hassles. There’s lots of jobs out here, actually. This is the one that baffles me. I live in a suburb of Toronto. My job takes me to about 130 businesses a year, which is a sampling of a larger group that our companies got more or less by years of marketing to every business in the country. The VAST majority of our customers are in suburban towns. I would guess that of my 130 customers, fewer than a quarter are in a large city. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/77 "2010-05-12T23:24:40Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > I suspect there will always be plenty of affluent folks who want a house with a yard, or just don’t trust urban schools to educate their children. > > Personally, though, you couldn’t pay me enough to move to the 'burbs. The idea of not being able to do _anything_ without driving is just plain depressing. > > (Technically, I suppose Arlington could count as suburbia - but I live in Ballston, which is heavily developed and only a short metro ride from DC). Heh. Being a former NOVA resident (Burke Centre) and proud graduate of Robinson HS, I wish more people felt like you do about driving. I lived in Burke the first time in 1974 and I remember as a child that there was hardly anything there. By the 1980’s and early 1990’s (my second two stints living there…Dad worked at the Pentagon every so often as a career Army officer), I couldn’t believe what a cookie-cutter suburban nightmare it had become. Development was just starting way out in places like Reston, Centreville, etc that were only a short time before nothing but rolling farmland back then. I just can’t believe how far people commute into DC and how much time they spend in their cars clogging the Capital Beltway, I-95, 66, 395, etc. Traffic in the DC area is the worst I’ve ever experienced. I went back to visit friends in the early 2000’s and it wasn’t any better. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/78 "2010-05-12T23:26:46Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Or even better, all the racist suburbanites will flee to the city, both displacing the unworthy darkies and making the CITIES the new bastion of rich white racists. Wasn’t that a major part of all the hatred for the suburbs in the first place? If you posit that racism did have a lot to do both with white flight and the return to cities, such a triple reversal is plausible in the next few decades, not ludicrous as you seem to be suggesting. Economic viability has a lot to do with supply and demand. Suburbs even five years ago had lots of demand and too little supply, and now it seems like both are reversing to a degree. It’s not like all economic factors are set in stone and cannot ever change. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/79 "2010-05-12T23:36:21Z")
Well, I guess “suburb” isn’t well defined. There are plenty of cities that have annexed their suburbs, while there are other cities (I’m looking at you, Los Angeles) that are nothing but independent cities. So defining suburbs strictly as anything not politically part of the core city doesn’t seem useful to me. Suburbs are a pattern of infrastructure development, not political organization. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055/80 "2010-05-12T23:38:43Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > If you posit that racism did have a lot to do both with white flight and the return to cities, such a triple reversal is plausible in the next few decades, not ludicrous as you seem to be suggesting. I just want to know if in a few years as a suburbanite I can start bitching about all the racists that live in the city, how it’s too expensive to live there, and the appalling lack of ethnic diversity, and services and economic opportunites for poor people that have the misfortune to live there. And then make moral judgements about the people that choose to actually live in such places. Because, as a suburbanite, I’ve been hearing that shit about us out here for years and paybacks a bitch. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-suburbs/539055.md?page=5)