# The end of the United Kingdom...........could come as soon as 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 11, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175 "2012-01-11T16:50:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/21 "2012-01-12T02:20:52Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The long-standing nationalist policy is that the Queen would be head of state post-independence, so Commonwealth membership seems a given. The SNP is a very broad church though, so there are republican elements in there. _shrug_ independence isn’t going to get a majority vote anyway. But her number would change! Since Elizabeth I was not a Queen of Scotland (they had James VI, who became James I in England), the current Elizabeth II of the UK would be Elizabeth I in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/22 "2012-01-12T13:33:27Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Isn’t Wales wanting out of the UK too? No, aside from a few outlying nationalists. Wales is a small, largely rural country with little industry and is heavily reliant on both cash and public sector jobs that come direct from Westminster. Ask even the most rabid anti-English welshman (like my in-laws) and they’ll tell you they don’t want to leave the Union. Wales would be screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/23 "2012-01-12T13:50:19Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > You won’t want the [Venn diagram](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10), then. 🙂 Well, now I have to go lie down for a while with a damp cloth on my head. Thanks very much for _that_. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/24 "2012-01-12T14:02:16Z")
Scotland would still be in Britain if it seceded from the Union wouldn’t it? In that the British Isles are made up of Great Britain (England + Scotland + Wales, regardless of politics) and Ireland and many smaller islands ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/25 "2012-01-12T14:51:44Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Though, the vote itself will be interesting. Who gets to vote in it? It seems likely to me that it will be voted on by those registered to vote in Scotland. Though, suppose a Scot has lived in Scotland all their lives, then moved to London for a job in the last few years. Is it really the case that this individual will be disenfranchised in the vote to decide what happens to their homeland, despite them never leaving the country in which they were born (the UK)? I’m particularly interested in this point, as I am just such a Scot. Will I have to move back to vote? Will I have to apply for citizenship on behalf of my Anglo-Scots kids? I’m not particularly pro-Independence. I don’t see what benefits we get out of it other than sticking two fingers up at the English. Devo-max would give tax powers, which are the one big missing piece of the jigsaw. But as for oil - I don’t think Scotland could fail to get at least all the oil that gets piped into it, and really any fields within territorial waters. It depends somewhat on the discussion about how to draw the border, but there’s surelly not much that England can offer/threaten that would lead to any big concessions on this. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/26 "2012-01-12T14:53:18Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Scotland would still be in Britain if it seceded from the Union wouldn’t it? In that the British Isles are made up of Great Britain (England + Scotland + Wales, regardless of politics) and Ireland and many smaller islands It would still be part of the British Isles, and Great Britain, both of which are geographical descriptions. It wouldn’t be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is a nation. In fact if Scotland leaves the union won’t that mean the title of the country would need to change? It wouldn’t be the United Kingdom of Great Britain any more as a big piece of it would be missing. Or could we keep on using that description under poetic licence? Hmmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/27 "2012-01-12T15:15:41Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > It depends somewhat on the discussion about how to draw the border, but there’s surelly not much that England can offer/threaten that would lead to any big concessions on this. They could threaten to veto Scottish entry into the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/28 "2012-01-12T15:32:02Z")
Fair point. But how long would that fly for? It wouldn’t be too hard to drum up diplomatic support from the rest of the EU, especially given the UK (England’s) current friendly status with the other big players. The desire to have a big oil region within the EU would be quite strong, I imagine. And of course, is it better to have the income from the oil or the trade benefits of the EU? Given the volume of Scotland’s trade, I’d imagine that the oil would be worth more. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/29 "2012-01-12T15:40:48Z")
Surely it would still be called the United Kingdom, though. Unless anyone can come up with a snappier name. The Area Formerly Known As The United Kingdom, or TAFKATUK? Britain, Less All Those Hills And Men In Skirts, or BLATHAMIS? Even Greater Britain? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/30 "2012-01-12T15:45:43Z")
This whole thing sounds like a bit of a farce. Since the power of the Scottish parliament is still devolved from Westminster, it doesn’t really matter if they vote for independence. > [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > In fact if Scotland leaves the union won’t that mean the title of the country would need to change? It wouldn’t be the United Kingdom of Great Britain any more as a big piece of it would be missing. Or could we keep on using that description under poetic licence? Hmmmm… Meh. The United States of America don’t cover all of even North America. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/31 "2012-01-12T16:14:50Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Fair point. But how long would that fly for? It wouldn’t be too hard to drum up diplomatic support from the rest of the EU, especially given the UK (England’s) current friendly status with the other big players. The desire to have a big oil region within the EU would be quite strong, I imagine. > > And of course, is it better to have the income from the oil or the trade benefits of the EU? Given the volume of Scotland’s trade, I’d imagine that the oil would be worth more. Spain, Belgium could well support the British veto, they have their own secessionist regions. Also, Scotland is too small to really add much to Europe, I can assure you that the EU has very little desire to add new smaller and in need of financial support countries. Furthermore, in this divorce, Scotland is the weaker partner and will end up worse. About the only thing that Scotland has as an advantage is any negotiation is North Sea oil and the UK’s nuclear deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/32 "2012-01-12T16:23:05Z")
Pretty much all of Europe has a secessionist region to deal with. The Italians have the mythical land of Padania. I don’t think anybody is going to be too thrilled at the prospect of a newly independent Scotland firing up their own secessionist regions. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/33 "2012-01-12T17:11:06Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > . I don’t see what benefits we get out of it other than sticking two fingers up at the English. The amusing side of that is that most of England would be thinking “thank fuck they’ve gone”. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/34 "2012-01-12T17:14:48Z")
> [@colophon](#): > > even greater britain? Awesome Britain. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/35 "2012-01-12T17:21:24Z")
England has a 6 week emergency supply of haggis and deepfried Mars bars for such a contingency. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/36 "2012-01-12T17:41:31Z")
This saddens me. My country, which I consider to be Britain I think of myself as British, is being broken up for no good reason as far as I can see. I’d like a world with more co-operation between ‘tribes’ not less. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/37 "2012-01-12T17:47:50Z")
Your (and my, at least according to my passport) country didn’t always include Scotland, and until quite recently included all of Ireland. Hell, it once included most of France. Don’t confuse self-determination with lack of cooperation. Sometimes, you have to get rid of the trappings of imperialism and so on before people are entirely comfortable cooperating with you. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/38 "2012-01-12T17:57:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Your (and my, at least according to my passport) country didn’t always include Scotland, and until quite recently included all of Ireland. Hell, it once included most of France. > > Don’t confuse self-determination with lack of cooperation. Sometimes, you have to get rid of the trappings of imperialism and so on before people are entirely comfortable cooperating with you. Imperialism??? Scotland came cap in hand to England after losing a lot of money. But still, I agree with your point however I can still be sad no? I’m British not English. ETA: what self determination do the Scots lack by the way? The previous government was dominated by Scottish MPs for 10 years! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/39 "2012-01-12T18:28:31Z")
I didn’t say imperialism. I said the _trappings_ of imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175/40 "2012-01-12T18:40:16Z")
Yeah, claiming they are victims of imperialism is not exactly something anyone can take seriously. The Irish at least had something on this score, and they were pretty egar imperialists too. Culloden does not count. Longshanks has been dead 800 years. ;). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-end-of-the-united-kingdom-could-come-as-soon-as-2014/609175.md?page=3)