# The ending of 12 Monkeys **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958 "2011-01-09T07:00:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/21 "2011-01-09T18:29:09Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Finally, just as a final point, I have to say that I don’t think I have ever seen a woman in ANY role, in ANY movie look as stunning and ethereal as Madeleine Stowe in 12 Monkeys. There is something about her and her performance that is almost hard for me to watch. Madeleine Stowe always looks great in any context, but her role as Dr. Katherine Railey is one of the most compelling things I have ever seen. > > (One last thing—though he was excellent, besides his bit role in Thelma & Louise, 12 Monkeys is the only time I have ever seen Brad Pitt act. I don’t know why, but even though I think he did a stellar job in 12 Monkeys, I have avoided seeing any of his movies since then. If there is something else he has done that is too good to pass up, please let me know) You are absolutely right about Stowe. Pitt is actually an incredible actor who has chosen a lot of bad films and has has been underestimated because of his looks. Check out his work in **Fight Club**. My interpretation of last scene in 12 Monkeys is that they are in a loop. They have been through it many, many times and are going to go through it at least once more… but they are getting closer. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/22 "2011-01-09T18:39:50Z")
In my view: When the lady says “I’m in insurance” she is making a sly joke. She is Cole’s backup (his “insurance”) sent back to collect the virus when Cole couldn’t finish the job. It has to be bittersweet for her. Since the virus has already been released, she has been exposed, and will likely die, but at least she is bringing back the “pure” strain. (Actually, now that I think about it, I suppose she may not realize that the virus has already been released and that she is being exposed. She may unwittingly destroy the future upon her return by being a carrier.) ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/23 "2011-01-09T18:43:22Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Sorry, but this makes no sense whatsoever. > There is no Temporal Paradox here. If the plague has already happened, there’s no reason to send anyone back in time to make sure it happens. I agree totally. My take on the ending is that she is there based on the information Cole has given the scientists. The fact that she says she is in insurance points to the fact that she is there to ‘insure’ the scientists means can be carried out. She’s the same age at all times in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/24 "2011-01-09T18:44:12Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Just a minor hijack, but I hope it will be forgiven… > > Anyone have any suggestions for other quality Sci-Fi films that I should check out? > > I haven’t seen almost any of them, even most of the acknowledged classics (Blade Runner, Close Encounters Of The Third Kind and 2001 Space Odyssey have all been recommended in the past, but I have yet to check them out) so any movies that you think would have some of the qualities that make 12 Monkeys so riviting would be much-welcomed suggestions. > > Finally, just as a final point, I have to say that I don’t think I have ever seen a woman in ANY role, in ANY movie look as stunning and ethereal as Madeleine Stowe in 12 Monkeys. There is something about her and her performance that is almost hard for me to watch. Madeleine Stowe always looks great in any context, but her role as Dr. Katherine Railey is one of the most compelling things I have ever seen. > > (One last thing—though he was excellent, besides his bit role in Thelma & Louise, 12 Monkeys is the only time I have ever seen Brad Pitt act. I don’t know why, but even though I think he did a stellar job in 12 Monkeys, I have avoided seeing any of his movies since then. If there is something else he has done that is too good to pass up, please let me know) I consider Blade Runner the best movie ever made, precisely because every time I have watched it I have seen another story. It doesnt play exactly on the same loop mode that 12 Monkeys does (time travel story privilege) but everything and everyone is ambiguous. If what you like in a story is not being certain (and God do I love that) you will love Blade Runner. P.S:I agree with you on Madeleine Stowe, while she was active, I thought she was the most attractive and seductive actress alive (she’s so fucking beautiful in Last of the Mohicans). Disagree on Brad Pitt, thought his performance in this movie was atrocious. P.S.2:you should also check 2001 (but start with Blade Runner). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/25 "2011-01-09T18:58:21Z")
For ambiguous endings, there’s also John Carpenter’s _The Thing_. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/26 "2011-01-09T19:08:06Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > When the lady says “I’m in insurance” she is making a sly joke. She is Cole’s backup (his “insurance”) sent back to collect the virus when Cole couldn’t finish the job. This is it simply. If Cole fails, she is ‘insurance’ that there is another chance. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/27 "2011-01-09T19:10:30Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > For ambiguous endings, there’s also John Carpenter’s _The Thing_. And one of my favorite movies as well. Though I wouldnt say the ending is ambiguous, just that it is “in suspension”. Definitely a must see. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/28 "2011-01-09T19:37:57Z")
Like others posted, I always assumed the point was she was not really a scientist before the disaster. But the ending is purposely vague and other interpretations are just as valid. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/29 "2011-01-09T19:47:48Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Like others posted, I always assumed the point was she was not really a scientist before the disaster. Well again, if you buy that explanation you have to explain why she is the same age in the future, while Cole goes from childhood to middle age. The only explanation is that she is a time traveler. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/30 "2011-01-09T20:08:22Z")
In previous discussions on this movie, we’ve come up with about ten different possible meanings to the ending. The problem is that we’ve never found one that tied up everything - every interpetation has at least one dangling loose thread. I assume this was intentional. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/31 "2011-01-09T20:38:47Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > You are absolutely right about Stowe. Pitt is actually an incredible actor who has chosen a lot of bad films and has has been underestimated because of his looks. Check out his work in **Fight Club**. Off topic, but how has Brad Pitt chosen bad films? His list of films seems pretty good on the whole. [QUOTE=Capitaine Zombie] And one of my favorite movies as well. Though I wouldnt say the ending is ambiguous, just that it is “in suspension”. Definitely a must see. [/QUOTE] I love “The Thing” too, but agree; there is no ambiguity about the ending. It’s just suspended. They’re gonna die, and the Thing is going to freeze. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/32 "2011-01-09T20:49:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I love “The Thing” too, but agree; there is no ambiguity about the ending. The ambiguity is in whether Childs has been taken over by the Thing. ---
**Author:** ![chromaticity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@chromaticity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chromaticity)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/33 "2011-01-10T03:46:44Z")
Are we sure that she says “I’m in insurance”, and not “I’m an insurance”? ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/34 "2011-01-10T03:48:57Z")
My (admittedly hazy) recollection is that Dr. Peters said he was transporting biological material, so what I’ve never understood about the movie is why the guard _opens a vial and sniffs_. That’s not just unbelievably stupid on the part of the guard, it’s unbelievably unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/35 "2011-01-10T04:11:00Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > 1. Maybe the past _can_ be changed. Very unlikely – changing the past will only create an alternate, parallel world which cannot be bridged from the current present. (Ref.: _Back to the Future II_.) It won’t stop the virus in the scientist’s world, because their common past already happened; which is why their sole choice is to obtain a pure, unmutated sample of the original virus. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/36 "2011-01-10T09:29:11Z")
> [@fuzzypickles](#): > > Very unlikely – changing the past will only create an alternate, parallel world which cannot be bridged from the current present. (Ref.: _Back to the Future II_.) It won’t stop the virus in the scientist’s world, because their common past already happened; which is why their sole choice is to obtain a pure, unmutated sample of the original virus. That’s clearly not at all how time travel works in 12 Monkeys, the past can be visited and modified and you dont have the "alternate universe created " cop-out of many time travel stories. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/37 "2011-01-10T10:20:24Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > My (admittedly hazy) recollection is that Dr. Peters said he was transporting biological material, so what I’ve never understood about the movie is why the guard _opens a vial and sniffs_. That’s not just unbelievably stupid on the part of the guard, it’s unbelievably unlikely. Did he? My equally hazy recollection is that Peters opened the vial and waved it under the guard’s nose, ostensibly to show how harmless it was. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/38 "2011-01-10T13:18:15Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > That’s clearly not at all how time travel works in 12 Monkeys, the past can be visited and modified and you dont have the "alternate universe created " cop-out of many time travel stories. I believe the movie works with the theory that Time flows like a river, and changing _small_ events in the past is like throwing a stone into the river, which creates temporary ripples (as well as Cole’s insanity) but in the long run, everything evens out. (Source: _Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy_, I think.) > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Did he? My equally hazy recollection is that Peters opened the vial and waved it under the guard’s nose, ostensibly to show how harmless it was. Yep…that’s how the security guard became Patient Zero, and he didn’t even know it. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/39 "2011-01-10T13:33:46Z")
I didn’t realize there was this much ambiguity about the movie. What happens to Cole happens because it happened. Remember the scene in the cinema with the tree rings? It’s a subtle hint that the past is already set. He had his part to play. And given that Cole had been told to collect a pure form of the virus I always assumed that the scientist was there to ensure that it was collected - _by her_. The “I’m in insurance” is an in-joke - she’s ensuring that the job gets done. Also, the time travel process improves throughout the film - we see hints of earlier attempts with the reports of the guy in the Middle Ages and the appearances in WW I trenches, but their targetting gets better until they are able to put people directly into the airport at the right time and place. The scientists weren’t going to go themselves until they could be sure that they would end up in the right time and place. And I agree: Brad Pitt - talented actor with some terrible films (_Mr and Mrs Smith_, anyone?). ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/40 "2011-01-10T14:32:06Z")
My view was that not only was the scientist there to collect the sample, but she was deliberately committing suicide to do it. I remember how she looked at her hand after shaking hands with Dr. Peters. She knew she’d be infected, but did it anyway to bring back the sample. And the insurance remark was a reference to bringing back the sample in case Cole failed. I remember the guard being the one who opened the vial and held it under his nose. Gilliam utterly HATES bureaucrats and made this guard the epitome of an officious idiot exercising petty power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958.md?page=3)