# The ending of 12 Monkeys **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958 "2011-01-09T07:00:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/61 "2011-01-12T00:02:04Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Sure, unless you believe (like I do) that the whole movie is his fantasy. > > Gilliam loves these ambiguous stories - was _Brazil_ all the fantasy of Sam Lowry during his torture? Gilliam may like ambiguous stories, but I just don’t see much ambiguity in this film. There are some mysteries, but they all get solved, and there are some misdirections, but these sorts of things don’t count as ambiguity, because they are no longer ambiguous by the end of the film. Sure, the doctor thinks he’s crazy for awhile, and he doubts himself for a time, but they and the audience eventually see for sure that he’s not crazy. > [@Darkhold](#): > > It’s really a pretty straightforward time travel movie otherwise (with some trippy bits thrown in). > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Of course, at that point, one may as well speculate that _every_ movie might just be an elaborate dream of one of the characters. Have to agree here. There’s barely any more indication that this movie is a head fantasy than any other film. > [@Spoke](#): > > When the lady says “I’m in insurance” she is making a sly joke. She is Cole’s backup (his “insurance”) sent back to collect the virus when Cole couldn’t finish the job. That’s how I interpreted it too. The goal has always been to get a sample of the virus, and that’s what she’s there to do. The rest of the time travel has all been shown to be a closed loop, so there’s no reason to think that she’s going to change anything. She’s just there for a sample. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > In previous discussions on this movie, we’ve come up with about ten different possible meanings to the ending. The problem is that we’ve never found one that tied up everything - every interpetation has at least one dangling loose thread. I assume this was intentional. What are these supposed loose ends? I can’t think of any loose end for the interpretation that everything was real, and the lady on the airplane was just there to get a sample. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/62 "2011-01-12T00:03:58Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Some years ago I read a commentary that said the author thought Pitt was at his best in comedic roles, and that the hunk factor kept him in a lot of dramatic roles where he’s competent, but not inspired. As far as drama goes, he was great in Kalifornia, and I thought he was very good in The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford. ---
**Author:** ![infinitii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e8c25b/32.png) [@infinitii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infinitii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/63 "2011-01-12T00:59:15Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > What are these supposed loose ends? I can’t think of any loose end for the interpretation that everything was real, and the lady on the airplane was just there to get a sample. I agree with how you saw the movie except for one tiny loose end. After Bruce has woken up at the movie theatre in his disguise, and then he looks for and finds Stowe, she at one point says something like “…this is how I remember you…”, or something to that effect. Something that suggests she might somehow be ‘remembering’ his dream/memory, and thus re-opening the suggestion that he is crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/64 "2011-01-12T01:20:36Z")
> [@infinitii](#): > > I agree with how you saw the movie except for one tiny loose end. After Bruce has woken up at the movie theatre in his disguise, and then he looks for and finds Stowe, she at one point says something like “…this is how I remember you…”, or something to that effect. > > Something that suggests she might somehow be ‘remembering’ his dream/memory, and thus re-opening the suggestion that he is crazy. Or it could be just another example of someone “remembering” something incorrectly. She wouldn’t be the only character in the movie whose memory isn’t entirely reliable. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/65 "2011-01-12T01:25:09Z")
I didn’t feel the movie ending was ambiguous at all and I don’t see the need to shoehorn “twists” or “ambiguous endings” into every oddball film as if it makes it a better movie. The movie firmly written as a predestination paradox. Any actions Cole takes in his past end up firmly fullfills present and future events. As he says, it is like a movie. The films doesn’t change, only his perception of it. What makes it a great film is not that the ending is ambiguous at but that it is NOT ambiguous. It starts of bizarre and insane with lots of ambiguity. We don’t know if Cole is imaginging everything. We don’t know who is insane and who is really from the future. But one by one, all those ambiguities and insanities are reconciled with what we know to be Cole’s ultimate destiny. > [@infinitii](#): > > I agree with how you saw the movie except for one tiny loose end. After Bruce has woken up at the movie theatre in his disguise, and then he looks for and finds Stowe, she at one point says something like “…this is how I remember you…”, or something to that effect. > > Something that suggests she might somehow be ‘remembering’ his dream/memory, and thus re-opening the suggestion that he is crazy. Cole says that, not Dr Railly. Cole remembered Dr Railly in her blond wig when he saw her in the airport as a child. And of course, Young Cole is there at the airport a little while later. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/66 "2011-01-12T01:36:10Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > But one by one, all those ambiguities and insanities are reconciled with what we know to be Cole’s ultimate destiny. At one time, “in the past”, Cole sees a vagrant in an alley who tells him that there is a tracking device in his tooth. Then, “in the future”, Cole is in a prison cell and hears the same voice (the vagrant’s voice), but he is alone. What is the explanation of that? ---
**Author:** ![infinitii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e8c25b/32.png) [@infinitii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infinitii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/67 "2011-01-12T02:56:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Cole says that, not Dr Railly. Cole remembered Dr Railly in her blond wig when he saw her in the airport as a child. And of course, Young Cole is there at the airport a little while later. From the script, which I found online: > [@](#): > > COLE > You were in my dream just now. I > didn’t recognize you. > > ``` > RAILLY > Well, you look pretty different, too. > > COLE > I mean in my dream -- I didn't realize > it was you. Then...I woke up and I...I > thought you were gone. > > RAILLY > (studies him seriously) > I remember you...like this. I feel > I've known you before. I feel I've > always known you. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/68 "2011-01-12T03:56:38Z")
> [@infinitii](#): > > From the script, which I found online: As it happens, that scene is on HBO right now! You’re correct. Also, when she first meets Cole, she is pretty sure she’s met him before. I believe it’s just “I’ve been in love with you before I met you” stuff. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/69 "2011-01-12T07:09:43Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You’re correct. Also, when she first meets Cole, she is pretty sure she’s met him before. Didn’t she sort of recognize him from the photo she had of him from her book, and then later realize where she saw him? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/70 "2011-01-12T09:18:01Z")
Isn’t the mission Cole is sent on is just to collect a sample of the original virus. He isn’t sent back in time to stop it. They have no intention of stopping it. Only the Madeline Stowe character wants to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2011, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/71 "2011-01-12T10:46:45Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Well, I like the scene at the end on the airplane, and I’m glad it’s there, but if it hadn’t been included, that would’ve been a statement in and of itself. So much of the movie is about circularity, Ouroboros, going back and forth in time. If the last thing we saw was the young Cole leaving the airport with his parents, having seen his own shooting death many years in his own future, that would, IMHO, have been _almost_ as good an ending as the one Gilliam finally decided to give us. I don’t think the airplane adds or detracts in any way. I’ve watched the film lots of times but have never noticed that the person involved is the scientist from the future. It doesn’t change the film at all. We are still left not knowing exactly what is real, remembered or imagined from Cole’s point of view. If we consider the wider concepts are true (the plague and time travel) well we already know that multiple time travellers are used, so what would be so surprising or revelatory about sending the scientist back to complete the job? We know they were getting better at locating the source of the virus so a more precise targetting would be the next logical step. The airplane scene confirms it but even without it I’d always assumed it. I suspect I’ve never noticed that bit because I’m always choked up by the previous scene. When Dr. Railly looks up to the young Cole in the crowd is one of my favourite movie moments. I don’t think either Madelaine Stowe or Bruce Willis have ever been better. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/72 "2011-01-13T20:10:03Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I do’t know what the director’s commentary says, but I never got the impression that the ending of _12 Monkeys_ was meant to be ambiguous and have never understood why so many people found it confusing. It seemed clear enough to me that the past could not be changed and the Bruce Willis character was doomed all along, but that the greater mission succeeded thanks to the information he gathered and the other time-traveling scientist. > > Since I’ve never heard the commentary it’s possible that Gilliam says otherwise and I missed his point entirely, but the ending did not strike me as being particularly open to interpretation. I never thought the ending was ambiguous either. Cole (and the other paroled convicts) were sent back in time for two reasons: [ol] [li]To get a non-mutated sample of the virus.[/li][li]As guinea pigs so the scientists could learn to aim better.[/li][/ol] There’s a reason why as we get closer to Ground Zero, we see more and more Time Travelers. When the time traveling process is perfected, and they know when and where the virus was first released they sent back a scientist to obtain the sample. Jose gives Cole the gun and tells him to shoot Dr. Peters, not to change the future, but rather to clearly and unambiguously identify him. We know there are others in the airport. Why else would they be there, but to ID Peters and report back. ---
**Author:** ![kelly5078](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/6f9a4e/32.png) [@kelly5078](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kelly5078)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/73 "2011-01-13T23:40:44Z")
The airplane scene bothers me because suddenly the scientists have gone from being blazingly inept at doing time travel to being spot-on accurate with it. How they would go about obtaining their ends is significantly affected thereby. If they’re klutzes, they have to keep sending someone back until they get the pure strain. If they’re accurate, they could just have investigated till they knewwhat was going on, after which they could have just walked into the lab and taken it. The only alternative, for me, is that they have two things going on at once: Cole is their agent prior to perfecting time travel, and the scientist is their agent afterwards. In which case, we have to see Cole’s whole adventure as futile. I can live with that; my problem is that the airplane scene feels tacked on, and not something integral to the movie. So, to me, the movie ends up being not so much ambiguous as incoherent. But I love it anyway. As for the Brad Pitt subtopic, I think he’s one of the best actors of his generation, and also one of the best at picking scripts. I find few of his movies unwatchable (in contrast to Johnny Depp, and even better actor who nonetheless seems to say, “I don’t know what the hell to do; what’s Burton up to this week?”). And I think he’s fantastic in “Fight Club,” “A River Runs Through It,” “Inglourious Basterds,” “Thelma and Louise,” and this movie. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/74 "2011-01-13T23:53:57Z")
One thing that always throws me off a bit about this movie (but I love it) is the whole scientist/time travel aspect of the movie being “real”. About the only thing sciency about the scientists is the white lab coats. The lab and time travel machinery doesnt look remotely realisitic. It looks more like how somebody having delusions of time travel (but doesnt know diddly about science) would imagine it. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/75 "2011-01-13T23:59:25Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m always choked up by the previous scene. When Dr. Railly looks up to the young Cole in the crowd is one of my favourite movie moments. I don’t think either Madelaine Stowe or Bruce Willis have ever been better. One of the most haunting scenes that I have ever seen… ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/76 "2011-01-14T00:09:53Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > One thing that always throws me off a bit about this movie (but I love it) is the whole scientist/time travel aspect of the movie being “real”. About the only thing sciency about the scientists is the white lab coats. The lab and time travel machinery doesnt look remotely realisitic. It looks more like how somebody having delusions of time travel (but doesnt know diddly about science) would imagine it. Well, that’s Gilliam, isn’t it? It’s a lot like the retro-futuristic designs in _Brazil_. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/77 "2011-01-14T00:14:48Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > Well, that’s Gilliam, isn’t it? It’s a lot like the retro-futuristic designs in _Brazil_. Another of my favorite movies. But at least in that one it ADDS to the story/feel. In this one it suggests its all a dream, which is not what Gilliam is going for is it? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/78 "2011-01-14T04:05:07Z")
> [@kelly5078](#): > > The airplane scene bothers me because suddenly the scientists have gone from being blazingly inept at doing time travel to being spot-on accurate with it. How they would go about obtaining their > ends is significantly affected thereby. If they’re klutzes, they have to keep sending someone back until they get the pure strain. If they’re accurate, they could just have investigated till they knewwhat was going on, after which they could have just walked into the lab and taken it. The only alternative, for me, is that they have two things going on at once: Cole is their agent prior to perfecting time travel, and the scientist is their agent afterwards. In which case, we have to see Cole’s whole adventure as futile. I can live with that; my problem is that the airplane scene feels tacked on, and not something integral to the movie. So, to me, the movie ends up being not so much ambiguous as incoherent. But I love it anyway. They seem klutzy at first but they reason they are “spot on accurate” at the end is because of all the work Cole (as well as other agents) did. “3 minutes ago, 30 years ago…they just put it all together.” But they also know that they are physically unable to change the past. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/79 "2011-01-14T04:13:44Z")
But if Cole got shot and never made it back to the future, how did he tell them about Dr Peters? ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/80 "2011-01-14T07:04:19Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > But if Cole got shot and never made it back to the future, how did he tell them about Dr Peters? We saw him call them from the airport telephone, right after which is why his friend showed up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958.md?page=5)