# The ending of 12 Monkeys **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958 "2011-01-09T07:00:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/101 "2012-11-26T23:15:06Z")
Time travel. Since my first day on the job, I swore I’d never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes - the future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me a stomachache. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/102 "2013-11-03T19:04:48Z")
Just saw _12 Monkeys_ again last night for the first time in many years - good stuff. Some thoughts: Why did Jones, the woman “in insurance,” shake hands with the bad guy who had just released the virus at the airport security checkpoint? It’d be like shaking hands with Hitler… unless she didn’t know he _was_ the guy. Cole’s appearance in the picture in the WWI trenches is much clearer than I’d remembered. There can be little doubt that was him (although we never see the photographer in that scene, among all the soldiers there). Was the crazy-eyed street preacher in Philadelphia who recognizes Cole (“You’re one of us!”) the same Dark Ages prophet who Dr. Railly mentions in her speech on the Cassandra Complex? I noticed one of the members of the underground council of scientists was played by the same guy who played Arthur Dent in the original _Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy_. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/103 "2013-11-03T19:44:08Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Just saw _12 Monkeys_ again last night for the first time in many years - good stuff. Some thoughts: > > Why did Jones, the woman “in insurance,” shake hands with the bad guy who had just released the virus at the airport security checkpoint? It’d be like shaking hands with Hitler… unless she didn’t know he _was_ the guy. She had a job to do, and perhaps getting him to relax would make her job easier. Maybe she’ll “watch his stuff” when he goes to the bathroom, or slip something in his Coke when he’s not looking. If shaking Hitler’s hand let you prevent WWII, wouldn’t you do that? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/104 "2013-11-03T19:49:04Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > She had a job to do, and perhaps getting him to relax would make her job easier. Maybe she’ll “watch his stuff” when he goes to the bathroom, or slip something in his Coke when he’s not looking. If shaking Hitler’s hand let you prevent WWII, wouldn’t you do that? Heck, wouldn’t Indiana Jones accept the guy’s autograph? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/105 "2013-11-03T19:50:07Z")
I’m going to have to watch this again. Somehow the significance of the final scene completely missed me. I didn’t realize she’d come from the future. I thought it was just her past self, and it was just some bizarre coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/106 "2013-11-03T23:45:31Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > She had a job to do, and perhaps getting him to relax would make her job easier. Maybe she’ll “watch his stuff” when he goes to the bathroom, or slip something in his Coke when he’s not looking. If shaking Hitler’s hand let you prevent WWII, wouldn’t you do that? She can’t “prevent WWII”. She’s there to get the sample of the virus that Bruce Willis never got and take it back to the future with her for study to look for a cure. You can’t change the past in 12 Monkeys time travel. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/107 "2013-11-04T00:29:30Z")
Indeed, it’s not the past that is changing at all, but Cole’s memories of it. I could buy that for some techo-babbly reason, they need a sample of the virus in its original form, while having no intention of even trying to stop the plague or even believing that stopping it was possible. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/108 "2013-11-04T00:49:34Z")
Perhaps it is indeed possible in the Monkeyverse to change the past, but the scientists and their “volunteers” are so beaten-down and fatalistic that, having tried to do so repeatedly already, they just assume they can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/109 "2013-11-04T01:07:41Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m going to have to watch this again. Somehow the significance of the final scene completely missed me. I didn’t realize she’d come from the future. I thought it was just her past self, and it was just some bizarre coincidence. Exactly. In my opinion, the whole point of her showing up was the show the people in charge were full of crap and weren’t even scientists. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/110 "2013-11-04T01:12:43Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > She can’t “prevent WWII”. She’s there to get the sample of the virus that Bruce Willis never got and take it back to the future with her for study to look for a cure. You can’t change the past in 12 Monkeys time travel. Whatever. The point remains, that she has an important job to do, and if that requires shaking his hand, why wouldn’t she do it? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/111 "2013-11-04T01:46:01Z")
In the airport near the end, why did Jose force the gun on Cole? The “scientists” must have known Cole would fail to kill the bad guy, mustn’t they? In the monkeyverse the past is immutable, at least they believed so, therefore to tell Cole to shoot him is illogical, or is it that because the chase happened, the chase had to happen? Also, why did Dr. Railly smile when she picked out the young Cole in the crowd after adult Cole died in her arms? Was it simply a feeling of joy knowing that Cole still lives, even though he’s just a child? Love this movie. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/112 "2013-11-04T16:11:00Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > In the airport near the end, why did Jose force the gun on Cole? The “scientists” must have known Cole would fail to kill the bad guy, mustn’t they? In the monkeyverse the past is immutable, at least they believed so, therefore to tell Cole to shoot him is illogical, or is it that because the chase happened, the chase had to happen? I thought Jose gave Cole the gun as a way to point out the Virus Guy. They knew Cole’s brain was so addled after the repeated trips, that simply asking him to point Virus Guy out would not work. Cole knew who Virus Guy really was, the scientists all thought it was Brad Pitt. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/113 "2013-11-04T19:44:15Z")
They may have given him the gun so that the cops would kill him. Loose end all tied up. Although he’d almost surely die of the virus anyway. Also, the scientist may have been intentionally committing suicide to bring back a sample of the virus. Look at how she looks at her hand afterwards. She knows she’s just been infected. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/114 "2013-11-04T19:49:05Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > …Also, the scientist may have been intentionally committing suicide to bring back a sample of the virus. Look at how she looks at her hand afterwards. She knows she’s just been infected. That’s how I’ve always seen it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/115 "2013-11-04T20:45:20Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Exactly. In my opinion, the whole point of her showing up was the show the people in charge were full of crap and weren’t even scientists. That was my take before reading this thread. The problem is that she’s the same age in the past and the future, while Willis/Cole ages from boyhood to adulthood. So she must have traveled through time. h/t PlainJain ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/116 "2013-11-05T04:00:48Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > That was my take before reading this thread. The problem is that she’s the same age in the past and the future, while Willis/Cole ages from boyhood to adulthood. So she must have traveled through time. h/t PlainJain It’s been a long time since I have seen it but I assumed that they had the technology to prolong their own lives. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/117 "2013-11-05T06:03:30Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > It’s been a long time since I have seen it but I assumed that they had the technology to prolong their own lives. I don’t think that is even implied. From where did your assumption come? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/118 "2013-11-05T19:56:22Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > It’d be sort of funny if everyone on the plane but Peters was a time traveller either trying to get a sample, Kill Peters, interefere with the gathering process or warning somone else not to interfere. One of the pilots could be bent on crashing the plane in the ocean to destroy the virus and the co-pliot was there to prevent him from doing so… If you haven’t read it, you might enjoy _Palimpsest_, By Charles Stross. It’s a novella that goes pretty deep down the time-travel rabbit-hole, including describing what happens to pivotal moments in history when there are multiple powerful groups in possession of the capability to travel in time and not agreed on the desired outcome. It’s everything in your example and more. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/119 "2013-11-05T20:25:01Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > I don’t think that is even implied. From where did your assumption come? From the fact that she looked the same. I believe that the people in charge’s only priority is to remain in charge and nearly everything they told Cole was a lie. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/120 "2013-11-05T20:36:40Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > If you haven’t read it, you might enjoy _Palimpsest_, By Charles Stross. > > It’s a novella that goes pretty deep down the time-travel rabbit-hole, including describing what happens to pivotal moments in history when there are multiple powerful groups in possession of the capability to travel in time and not agreed on the desired outcome. It’s everything in your example and more. Obligatory _Wikihistory_ link: [http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/wikihistory](http://www.tor.com/stories/2011/08/wikihistory) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958.md?page=7)