# The ending of 12 Monkeys **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 9, 2011, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958 "2011-01-09T07:00:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/161 "2014-12-29T17:31:11Z")
So the upcoming miniseries is a remake of the movie? That’s really disappointing. I saw a quick trailer for it but was only half-paying attention and I was hoping it was a sequel. I don’t see any reason to remake a perfectly good movie. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/162 "2014-12-29T18:20:43Z")
I agree with much of Jducketts post. The lady was a scientist sent back to where they know the original virus is located. Note that James, Jose and the blond guard were all there at the airport along with the lady. The scientists had located the virus and were sending in a whole team now that they had gotten the time travel targeting pinpointed. And she deliberately shook his hand to get contaminated. I don’t think she was immune. She sacrificed herself to get that sample. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/163 "2014-12-29T20:28:31Z")
But the entire movie the Scientists are presented to be basically assholes who are in over their head. That’s the main reason I interpret the ending the way that I do. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/164 "2014-12-29T21:10:14Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > So the upcoming miniseries is a remake of the movie? That’s really disappointing. I saw a quick trailer for it but was only half-paying attention and I was hoping it was a sequel. I don’t see any reason to remake a perfectly good movie. [Wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Monkeys_%28TV_series%29): > [@](#): > > Matalas presented the new series as a “complete reimagining” of the movie and not just a remake, citing Looper as an inspiration for the time-travel visual effects. I was hoping for a Fargo-like series with similar themes and setting but different characters and plot, maybe with plenty of throwbacks to the original film. Personally, I think the ending _is_ ambiguous. The future James comes from is supposed to be near. I’m thinking roughly now - 2014-2020ish compared to 1996 when the critical events unfold. I know from experience that some women look like homely old ladies at a fairly young age, and may not look significantly different at 60 than they did at 40. So the scientist being on the doomsday plane by coincidence theory is plausible, if only just. From that POV it would seem to illustrate that the “scientists” are really just incompetent bureaucrats who managed to win control of the post-apocalyptic world. Their bungling of everything from time travel to who caused the plague to their own dystopian underground rule fits this theme. I also think that “she came back after time travel was perfected to collect a sample of the virus” is plausible too. But it leaves open the question of why book a flight when she could just collect a sample at the airport? Why subject herself to the psychological dangers of time travel and to the unmutated virus? Also, isn’t she a major world leader? This is like sending President Obama off to fight ISIS. And there’s definitely something up with their motives. They could collect a sample of the virus in the future to help immunize the future people to their own conditions. We don’t need to go back to the 1918 flu epidemic in order to make this season’s flu shots, for example. So why exactly are they sending people back in time? I don’t think that’s ever exactly clarified in the film. The scientists are assholes, and they certainly have some sketchy motives. Also, there’s the theme in the film that the past cannot change, but no one ever explains why. It certainly seems like she could have shown up 15 minutes earlier and killed the evil lab tech. Open questions like that are what make movies great. Even if you wrap up the plot nicely and neatly you should leave your audience thinking. Anyway, it’s one of my favorite movies and one that I haven’t seen in far too long. I’m looking forward to the TV series, even though in my experience the SciFi channel makes crap. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/165 "2014-12-29T23:01:29Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Also, isn’t she a major world leader? This is like sending President Obama off to fight ISIS. More like sending Pres. Whitmore to fight off the alien invasion. This _is_ an apocalyptic, end-of-the-world scenario, you know. But I never felt she was leader of anything, except maybe the crew of scientists working on time travel. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/166 "2014-12-29T23:50:17Z")
What gave you the impression she was anyone aside from a scientist? I"m guessing she was sent because they finally realized sending unstable mental patients maybe wasn’t the smartest idea.😛 My personal opinion is that we’re looking at a self consistent time loop, once Cole removes his implant and goes offline to the future at some point perhaps years from the last time they sent Cole back they find the garbled voicemail and send Cole’s future er co-slave back to hand him the gun knowing from where the voicemail was left. Then he returns via implant and tells them what he saw, they then send back the female scientist back and she was probably there in the past during the time period of the movie we just don’t see her arranging to be on that plane.(I find it hard to believe that plane would take off with a shooting in the terminal but what ev). It only looks like the future is changing due to our heroes actions because we’re going through it with them. I’ve also seen theories Cole really is insane and hallucinating and either he is in the future and hallucinating the time travel and the past, or he is in our time and hallucinating the future. Both kind of work honestly, his greatest prediction is saying a boy in a well was a hoax and that the army of the 12 monkeys is responsible(proven false!). Interesting way to watch the movie that makes it even more ambiguous. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/167 "2014-12-30T01:02:11Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Also, there’s the theme in the film that the past cannot change, but no one ever explains why. It certainly seems like she could have shown up 15 minutes earlier and killed the evil lab tech. It _seems_ like that, sure. But all of this already happened: that lab tech released the virus in that airport before getting on the plane – and if she’d shown up 15 minutes early, she’d have somehow failed to kill him, because he’s still going to do all that stuff, because he still _did_ all that stuff, haventa forewhen presooning returningwenta retrohome. ---
**Author:** ![DrForrester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@DrForrester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrForrester)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/168 "2014-12-30T01:45:34Z")
In the documentary that comes with the movie on the US DVD, Terry Gilliam says that he wanted to end the film as Cole dies, with the camera on the younger Cole. But, he was talked into adding the bit about the scientist sitting in the plane, because The Powers That Be wanted the ending to be clarified. It sounds, from this discussion, that the ending did not particularly clarify anything. Personally, I don’t see any need to plunge too deeply into conspiratorial thought. The ending seems plain enough. It’s not being seen through the eyes of Cole. He’s dead. So, his sanity or lack thereof, doesn’t come into play. Earlier in the film, Cole explains that once the Future People knew where to send a scientist to collect the sample, that’s what would happen. Eventually, that’s what happens. The Scientists, to be fair, are under a lot of pressure. They have finite resources and an immense job. They need to be seen as having all the answers, when, really, they don’t. Cole needs them to be strong, because, clearly, he’s under duress & needs guidance. They need Cole to be strong, because he’s the best hope that they have. Their hopes ride on Cole. The Future People’s hopes ride on the scientists. No pressure. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/169 "2015-01-03T01:36:17Z")
This scenario is just one reason why I hate movies about time travel and indeed the concept of time travel itself. It just doesn’t make any sense to believe it’s possible to time travel. There is an old but famous example of someone who goes back in time and kills their grandfather and then comes back to the present. How can they do that and still be alive if their grandfather is dead? This example just gives me a headache when I think about it. So I’m going to go and do something else now. I wish you all the best of luck. Bye now! ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/170 "2015-01-03T04:04:52Z")
> [@Charlie\_Wayne](#): > > This scenario is just one reason why I hate movies about time travel and indeed the concept of time travel itself. > > It just doesn’t make any sense to believe it’s possible to time travel. > > There is an old but famous example of someone who goes back in time and kills their grandfather and then comes back to the present. > > How can they do that and still be alive if their grandfather is dead? > > This example just gives me a headache when I think about it. So I’m going to go and do something else now. > > I wish you all the best of luck. Bye now! Er, _12 Monkeys_ actually provides a tidy and straightforward answer to this: time travelers cannot change the past. Time travelers who attempt to go back and time and kill their grandfathers to prevent their own conception, kill Hitler and avert WWII, stop the plague that wiped out most of humanity, etc., are doomed to fail. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958/171 "2015-01-03T04:10:44Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Er, _12 Monkeys_ actually provides a tidy and straightforward answer to this: time travelers cannot change the past. Time travelers who attempt to go back and time and kill their grandfathers to prevent their own conception, kill Hitler and avert WWII, stop the plague that wiped out most of humanity, etc., are doomed to fail. Not only can they not change the past, but they were always part of the past! I think 12 Monkeys like the original Terminator film presents a self consistent time line, Cole was always part of 1996 in the film. Nothing is being altered, we are just seeing events play out as they always had, Cole as a child saw his adult self killed and he has this memory even at the start of the film. Basically what happened, always happened. Time travelers were always part of 1996 in the movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ending-of-12-monkeys/566958.md?page=8)