# The Epic Saga of a Father's Death **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 10, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182 "2017-11-10T03:08:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/41 "2017-11-14T15:46:27Z")
I’m perfectly calm. Your thinking that your grandmother “deserves to be reimbursed” is your opinion, which may or may not reflect any legal duties. If your grandmother isn’t competent enough to decide whether or not to make such expenditures, IMO she should not have control of her checkbook/bank accounts. I have long ago ceased to be surprised at the fucked up permutations of how people style their lives, with little apparent concern for the implications on their family. And I’ve seen enough dickish behavior regarding estates, that I almost consider it the exception when heirs act reasonably. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/42 "2017-11-14T16:17:29Z")
Thanks, bye now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/43 "2017-11-14T18:15:52Z")
In the absence of a will, the estate’s assets (after the debts are paid) will be divided according to whatever formula the law of that state has set. If there had been no surviving spouse, then the children (you and Julia) would have divided the assets equally. But since there IS a surviving spouse (much to your surprise), it’ll be X% to the spouse, and the rest divided equally among the children, with X varying depending on what state your father lived in. (Best bet is X=50%, not knowing the state, but it’s not a given.) So Barbara gets a good deal more than ‘just’ the bulk of the insurance, and your share, unfortunately, has diminished by a fair amount. BTW, make sure you actually see a copy of the insurance policy. If the policy itself designates the shares that go to Barbara, Julia, and you, then that’s the official word. But if it doesn’t, and his wishes were made known elsewhere, that may or may not be controlling. State law would determine that. But given the size of the policy, that’s something you or your lawyer should see, rather than take anyone’s word. Also, Barbara, as surviving spouse, would probably be the executor if she wants to be. Regarding funeral expenses, your grandmother should bill the estate for them, once there is an executor, since the estate customarily pays funeral expenses. But since the funeral expenses were apparently incurred without any agreement with Barbara and Julie, I’m not sure whether they’re obligated to reimburse your grandmother for them. Yeesh. What a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/44 "2017-11-14T18:18:47Z")
The good thing about a lawyer is that he or she is not emotionally invested in any of this. Therefore, he or she will not expect anyone to do anything because she “should”, and not think anyone owes anyone else unless the law says they do. My condolences for your loss. Listen to your lawyer. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/45 "2017-11-14T18:41:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Regarding funeral expenses, your grandmother should bill the estate for them, once there is an executor, since the estate customarily pays funeral expenses. But since the funeral expenses were apparently incurred without any agreement with Barbara and Julie, I’m not sure whether they’re obligated to reimburse your grandmother for them. This was my point. What if Julia and Barbara would have been happy to cremate the deceased? Or donate the body to science? The fact that OP’s grandmom elected to pay for an $8k funeral, doesn’t mean anyone has to reimburse her. Seems weird that grandmom would’ve been billed (did she make the arrangements?), when there obviously WAS an estate and considerable insurance. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/46 "2017-11-14T18:59:20Z")
So if they presented as married, but never actually got a license & had a ceremony, the state they lived in is of extreme importance. Most states no longer recognize common-law marriage, a few abolished it recently enough that 20 years may qualify. Your lawyer should be able to tell you whether or not their marriage could possibly be valid, or whether Barbara and Julia are trying to cheat you out of half of your inheritance. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/47 "2017-11-14T19:00:48Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > This was my point. What if Julia and Barbara would have been happy to cremate the deceased? Or donate the body to science? The fact that OP’s grandmom elected to pay for an $8k funeral, doesn’t mean anyone has to reimburse her. OK, I misread you. I thought you were talking about whether the OP should reimburse his grandma out of his share of the insurance. Anyhow, I second your comment. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Seems weird that grandmom would’ve been billed (did she make the arrangements?), when there obviously WAS an estate and considerable insurance. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/48 "2017-11-14T19:05:33Z")
A technical question: when the death certificate is filled out, how do they determine whether the decedent was married? Do they expect to see proof in the form of a marriage certificate, or do they just take the word of whoever was acting as next of kin? I’m used to just taking such documents as gospel, but this has me wondering. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/49 "2017-11-14T20:21:08Z")
Okay, I apologize for being emotional. It just seemed like **Dinsdale** was harping on the fact that I wanted to reimburse my grandmother, and that was an issue that didn’t need to be debated. From here on out, just assume that it is very important to me that she gets her money back, even if that means I have to pay the whole damn thing myself. > [@](#): > > BTW, make sure you actually see a copy of the insurance policy. You better believe it. I’ve been trying to make that happen. I’m on hold with his workplace as I type this, and not for the first time. Last time they weren’t able to help much, because I’m not the main beneficiary. I’m not sure if having the death certificate now will help (pretty sure it won’t), but I will report back after I speak with someone. > [@](#): > > What if Julia and Barbara would have been happy to cremate the deceased? Indeed, Julia said she would have been happy burying him in the state he died (we had him transferred to his and my home state so he could be buried next to my sister, his second child, who passed away 8 years ago), but she said by the time she brought this up the plans had already been made. I didn’t make them, but I can guarantee nobody else would have wanted that and she would have lost that argument anyway. > [@](#): > > Seems weird that grandmom would’ve been billed (did she make the arrangements?) As I understand it, she and her daughter (Stu’s sister) planned everything quickly, and she covered the costs with the assumption that once the insurance kicked in she would be reimbursed. Is that not normally how it works? I’m really asking. > [@](#): > > A technical question: when the death certificate is filled out, how do they determine whether the decedent was married? Do they expect to see proof in the form of a marriage certificate, or do they just take the word of whoever was acting as next of kin? This is an excellent question that I will investigate. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/50 "2017-11-14T20:23:02Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > A technical question: when the death certificate is filled out, how do they determine whether the decedent was married? Do they expect to see proof in the form of a marriage certificate, or do they just take the word of whoever was acting as next of kin? > > I’m used to just taking such documents as gospel, but this has me wondering. I would assume the coroner would take the spouse at face value without asking for evidence. If there was any issue or it was done fraudulently, it would be very easy to correct. The rightful heirs would have a lot of motivation to ensure the spouse was correct. This situation is getting messier. There’s the legally correct path, but it will likely negatively affect everyone’s relationships. The grandmother legally should go after the estate for the funeral bills, but the estate can likely legally refuse to pay since it never agreed. Then grandmother will need to sue the estate. There’s also the issue of selling the house. Barbara’s and Julia’s shares of the estate together will certainly be larger than yours, so your ideas about what to do with the house may not matter. And there’s not a whole lot of money in the estate. Legal fees fees could easily eat up everything and then some. The way to cause the least drama is for you to reimburse grandmother for the funeral expenses and go with the flow for the disbursal of the estate. If Barbara and Julia are fair, you’ll get your fair share. If they’re not, then you’ll have to go the legal path and deal with all those expenses and headaches. What has Barbara said about the funeral bills? > [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > As I understand it, she and her daughter (Stu’s sister) planned everything quickly, and she covered the costs with the assumption that once the insurance kicked in she would be reimbursed. Is that not normally how it works? I’m really asking. The only thing that’s normal is that the people involved make a lot of assumptions about how things will work out. Those assumptions are typically not shared by all interested parties. So the other thing that’s normal is that these assumptions cause major disagreements between the interested parties. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/51 "2017-11-14T20:27:14Z")
Sorry, meant to add that the state in which he died does honor common law marriages, under the condition that they are “presenting themselves as a married couple”. Which, again, was news to me. > [@](#): > > The way to cause the least drama is for you to reimburse grandmother for the funeral expenses and go with the flow for the disbursal of the estate. If Barbara and Julia are fair, you’ll get your fair share. If they’re not, then you’ll have to go the legal path and deal with all those expenses and headaches. What has Barbara said about the funeral bills? This is exactly what I decided to do when I woke up this morning. If I can’t make Barbara leave anytime soon, then it really does me no good to be appointed executor, in which case my only option is to sit here 1,500 miles away and just hope that everyone keeps their word. I don’t like it but I don’t know what else to do. I’m not even sure my desire for Barbara to pay the funeral bills has reached her. I could reach out to her directly, but that conversation seems like it would be messy, and I’m still angry and don’t want to make things worse. But I have no idea if Julia has passed on my wishes or just taken it upon herself to decide it’s inappropriate to ask. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/52 "2017-11-14T20:31:52Z")
I’m sure your grandmother will appreciate your good character when you reimburse her and I’m sure she’ll remember you appropriately. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/53 "2017-11-14T20:37:53Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > And there’s not a whole lot of money in the estate. Legal fees fees could easily eat up everything and then some. I was thinking this as well. > [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Sorry, meant to add that the state in which he died does honor common law marriages, under the condition that they are “presenting themselves as a married couple”. Which, again, was news to me. Does it matter that they weren’t presenting as married to the family? That would be another question for the lawyers. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/54 "2017-11-14T20:50:40Z")
If this was me I would want to see the will and talk to some of dad’s friends to see if he was of sounds mind when he wrote up his will. I am so sorry for the lost of your dad . I would contest the will too , I can’t help but feel the Julia’s mom is going to made some money out of this too. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/55 "2017-11-14T21:05:37Z")
I used to do a bit of work involving common law marriage and paternity. Even if a state recognizes it, it comes down to a determination of fact. Requires more proof that someone simply saying - after the fact - that they held themselves out as married. The state statute and common law will discuss various factors considered. Did they have joint bank accounts? Credit cards? Utility bills? Fuck, did they celebrate their “anniversary” or send out mail signed “Mr. and Mrs.”? Please realize that I am approaching this as a lawyer, not as someone assigning any emotional or ethical “merit” to any individual. What is legal may have nothing to do with what we all might think is “right.” I’m also speaking from my experience of people majorly screwing their family over by not taking some simple steps. If the deceased failed to be responsible, a selfish or dishonest person can cause everyone else a ton of heartache (and $). (Yes, I speak from experience!) One thing I REALLY don’t know about is insurance. AFAIK, the insurance is completely distinct from the estate. Your dad could’ve named his dog, or a charity, as beneficiary, and they would have ZERO obligation to pay any part of the funeral expenses. Instead, reasonable expenses should come out of the estate - which, as I understand it, was a house and a car. Any idea of the house value? No bank accounts/investments? Seems a tad odd (tho not unheard of) for someone to have a paid off house, but no savings/investments. I’m also absolutely ignorant of any homestead law that would allow the cohabitant to continue to live in the house rent and expense free, at the expense of other heirs. But I also don’t think Julia and Barbara should be expected to pay a lion’s share of the costs to ship dad across country. Especially lacking clear desire for that on your dad’s part. If your grandmother and whomever else wanted to do that, I’m not sure why that shouldn’t be at their expense. If you want to cover their spending, that is your choice. But I don’t readily see why the obligation is on Julia and Barbara. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/56 "2017-11-14T21:19:45Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > If this was me I would want to see the will and talk to some of dad’s friends to see if he was of sounds mind when he wrote up his will. I am so sorry for the lost of your dad . I would contest the will too , I can’t help but feel the Julia’s mom is going to made some money out of this too. To the best of the OP’s knowledge, there is no will. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/57 "2017-11-14T21:28:10Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > One thing I REALLY don’t know about is insurance. AFAIK, the insurance is completely distinct from the estate. Your dad could’ve named his dog, or a charity, as beneficiary, and they would have ZERO obligation to pay any part of the funeral expenses. This is absolutely true. Insurance policies with named beneficiaries are **not** part of the probate estate, and the payout from those polices goes straight to the named beneficiaries without any obligation on their part. > [@](#): > > Instead, reasonable expenses should come out of the estate - which, as I understand it, was a house and a car. Any idea of the house value? In post #35, the OP said Zillow gave the house a value of more than twice the earlier estimate, which was $100K. So somewhere around or a little over $200K is what it sounds like. It would be helpful if the OP would fill us in on what state this is happening in, given that state laws can vary so much on everything we’re discussing here. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/58 "2017-11-14T22:12:59Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > But I also don’t think Julia and Barbara should be expected to pay a lion’s share of the costs to ship dad across country. Just to clarify, nobody did this. _I_ live halfway across the country, and flew home for the funeral. He lived in–fine, I’ll just say it, since I suppose it doesn’t really matter–Texas, that’s where his house was, and was transported to Oklahoma, his and my home state, to be buried. Julia’s contention was that she would rather have buried him in Texas, especially because the veteran’s cemetery would have been free (he served a short stint as a Marine), but by the time she suggested this to our aunt (Stu’s sister), plans had already been made to get him up to Oklahoma for burial. > [@](#): > > Did they have joint bank accounts? Credit cards? Utility bills? Fuck, did they celebrate their “anniversary” or send out mail signed “Mr. and Mrs.”? Absolutely not, never, nowhere, nohow, as far as we were concerned. Now, most of his family was a state away and I was half a country away, but we’re still flabbergasted that he was apparently living this double life that he didn’t want to tell us about. Funny thing is, I feel like we would have gotten over the weirdness of him being “married” to the mother of his ex-wife much more quickly than being lied to for 20 years. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2017, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/59 "2017-11-15T03:53:28Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > …Texas … eyeballing 1500 miles from NYC, I was gonna wager one of the Dakotas. > [@](#): > > Absolutely not, never, nowhere, nohow, as far as we were concerned. … Yeah, well even as fucked up as Texas is in so many things, I doubt even THEY would allow for someone to “hold themselves out as married” - but only start doing so after one died and it is the the financial advantage of the other. :dubious: It’s a shitty situation, isn’t it? When it really looks like someone is trying to screw you out of a sizeable sum of cash, and you have to decide how medieval you get - or whether you let them. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2017, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182/60 "2017-12-02T04:47:45Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#): > > Okay, I apologize for being emotional. It just seemed like **Dinsdale** was harping on the fact that I wanted to reimburse my grandmother, and that was an issue that didn’t need to be debated. From here on out, just assume that it is very important to me that she gets her money back, even if that means I have to pay the whole damn thing myself. I think the point many in this thread are making is stop looking at this emotionally (tough I know) so you don’t get fucked over. It is the estate’s responsibility to pay expenses _so let them do it_. At the rate your going your going to pay all of the expenses while they run off with the whole estate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-epic-saga-of-a-fathers-death/801182.md?page=4)