# The equality of the Iraki savages and the avoidance of racist **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [September 7, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711 "2014-09-07T00:26:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/21 "2014-09-07T14:35:00Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Sorry, as of the most recent versions of the rules, this absolutely, unequivocally is _not_ junior modding. I don’t get it either but per Dex: > from [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17561899&postcount=5). > > I don’t think that rule makes any sense since post placement is one of the primary jobs of a mod, but there it is, black and white. I’m not seeing where this proves anything, or if id does, it proves that I am right. Sounds to me like Dex is saying that asking for a thread to be moved is not jr modding, but telling a poster to stop doing something is. And **IW** was telling a post to stop doing something. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/22 "2014-09-08T00:38:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Because evil has to be brought to light or it festers. Bury it in condemnation and sarcasm, and it decomposes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/23 "2014-09-08T00:55:07Z")
My apologies I miss spoke. I don’t understand much about how this forum is put together, What is the pit? and what means junior moderating? and a lot more. Americans seem to think that we as Americans should start bombing somewhere in the Mid East. Doesn’t seem to matter where, but somewhere and soon. I don’t see that it is any of our business, at all. Just like Vietnam once more time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/24 "2014-09-08T01:19:57Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > My apologies I miss spoke. I don’t understand much about how this forum is put together, What is the pit? and what means junior moderating? The [BBQ Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=5) is a forum where the rules are a lot looser, and you can insult posters to your heart’s delight (almost). Junior Modding is non-moderators acting as if they were moderators. > [@](#): > > and a lot more. You might want to read the FAQs. > [@](#): > > Americans seem to think that we as Americans should start bombing somewhere in the Mid East. Doesn’t seem to matter where, but somewhere and soon. I don’t see that it is any of our business, at all. Just like Vietnam once more time. I wouldn’t want to junior mod or anything, but if you read the rules, you will find that this forum is ONLY for discussing issues about this MB, and not debating politics. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/25 "2014-09-08T12:05:38Z")
> [@DingoelGringo](#): > > My apologies I miss spoke. I don’t understand much about how this forum is put together, What is the pit? and what means junior moderating? and a lot more. Americans seem to think that we as Americans should start bombing somewhere in the Mid East. Doesn’t seem to matter where, but somewhere and soon. I don’t see that it is any of our business, at all. Just like Vietnam once more time. I think **John Mace** answered you pretty well. We generally require reasonable courtesy and good manners towards other posters (we’re less concerned about outsiders, like politicians and movie-stars.) However, we do realize the need to vent sometimes, so we have a special forum (the BBQ Pit) where it is acceptable to roast other posters. Similarly, our other forums are pretty much set up for the type of discussion (debate, question/answer, etc) or topic (The Message Board itself, arts & entertainment, gaming, politics). You might want to look at the different forums on the front page, and their description. “Junior modding” is one of those in-terms, it’s defined in the [glossary](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=320298) that’s part of the [FAQ - Please read first](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=562482) thread. And you can always ask, either by posting or by emailing a mod. Clear? ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/26 "2014-09-09T00:20:18Z")
I’m fucking _gobsmacked_ that some can argue – apparently with a straight face – that “one band of primitive savages attacking another” isn’t racist and hateful. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/27 "2014-09-09T12:59:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The post by **Ibm Warraq** was junior modding. He’s lucky he didn’t get a warning. No, **Ibn Warraq** was not junior modding. We just had a thread trying to clarify what [junior modding](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=730147) is and is not, and that thread specifically said that what Ibn Warraq did was not junior modding. From that thread: [QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] And, just to be clear, the following has never been considered “junior modding”: - Telling someone to act like an adult (This could be an insult, depends on circs, but it’s not junior modding.) - Suggesting a forum change - Noting clear spam (and noting that it was reported) [/QUOTE] Underlining added. Specifically, [the rule](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=320298) states > [@](#): > > **Junior Modding** – When someone who is **not** a moderator asserts that something is a violation of SDMB rules. This usurps the role of moderators, who are the arbiters of rules and posting standards on the SDMB. [snip] I deleted extraneous commentary. At no point did **Ibn Warraq** say that **DingoelGringo** had voilated any rules. What he said was “come over here to the Pit where I can insult you properly”, **not** “you are not allowed to post racist comments in GD” or “you are violating GD rules posting that here”. I note that **Jonathan Chance** and **tomndebb** both think the issue was derailing or being nasty in GD rather than junior modding. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m not seeing where this proves anything, or if id does, it proves that I am right. Sounds to me like Dex is saying that asking for a thread to be moved is not jr modding, but telling a poster to stop doing something is. And **IW** was telling a post to stop doing something. Telling people to stop doing things is not necessarily junior modding. I can tell you to stop frowning all day and smile once in a while, or stop wearing your pants pulled down to you knees and wear them properly, or stop smoking crack. None of those are junior modding, and depending on the thread, might be in context or might be acceptable wisecracks. Junior modding is telling someone they are violating the rules or telling someone how to post with respect to the rules of the board. **Ibn Warraq** did not do that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/28 "2014-09-09T13:59:35Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > No, **Ibn Warraq** was not junior modding. We just had a thread trying to clarify what [junior modding](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=730147) is and is not, and that thread specifically said that what Ibn Warraq did was not junior modding. From that thread: Well, we can let **Dex** clarify, but **IW** did not request a forum change. He told another poster, in effect, “take it to the pit”. That is standard moderator phrasing, so if “acting like a moderator” is not junior modding, then the term doesn’t mean what it should mean. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/29 "2014-09-09T16:11:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He told another poster, in effect, “take it to the pit”. “…where people can properly respond to it” - I’m assuming **IW** is including himself as amongst “people” here. It is the polite, heretofore-accepted way of saying “that statement is so fucked-up only a Pit-language response would do” And now we’re to believe this is junior modding? I say “Why don’t you take that to the Pit” often enough, I’ve never been modded for it. Am I going to be, now? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/30 "2014-09-09T16:18:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “…where people can properly respond to it” - I’m assuming **IW** is including himself as amongst “people” here. It is the polite, heretofore-accepted way of saying “that statement is so fucked-up only a Pit-language response would do” > > And now we’re to believe this is junior modding? I say “Why don’t you take that to the Pit” often enough, I’ve never been modded for it. Am I going to be, now? It’s the part you left off (for whatever reason): “Would you mind keeping the racist claptrap in the pit”. IOW, “take it to the pit”, as I said above. Now, you can argue that he said it very nicely, but I can also so “would you mind not being so stupid”, but that’s still an insult. But if **Dex** says I’m wrong, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/31 "2014-09-09T16:26:02Z")
> [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](#): > > The question of whether “band of primitive savages” fits any of these categories (hateful, hate speech, purposely inflammatory) is situational; and war and capital punishment (both of which come into play in this situation) allow some exceptions. I think “band of primitive savages” is apt for the ISIS folks. Not so much for Iraqi pilots (unless they are deliberately hitting hospitals), and considerably less so (sarcastic understatement) for newborns or for those poor souls under ISIS rule involuntarily. > > We’ve often said, if you spot an infraction (espesh insults) do NOT respond in kind, but report it. The fact that one party has broken the rules does not give you permish to do so. REPORT (click on the little ! in the red triangle in upper right corner) and let the mods handle. Hmm. **Terr** doubled-down with the “savages killing each other” in this thread, and rather than respond in kind to him, I reported it. No result. I’m really having trouble seeing how these white folks can refer to people of color as primitive savages and it’s not raising your racism red flag. This speaks to a huge blind spot among the moderators, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/32 "2014-09-09T16:27:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > ] This speaks to a huge blind spot among the moderators, in my opinion. It’s a heavy burden, but someone has to carry it! ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/33 "2014-09-09T16:30:53Z")
I’m a little unclear on how “would you mind…” is classified by some respondents as NOT a request, but telling someone what to do. Sounds all requesty/suggesty to me. I’m much clearer on whether “One band of primitive savages attacking another” is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/34 "2014-09-09T19:17:44Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > … I’m much clearer on whether “One band of primitive savages attacking another” is racist. If I were a white man, and was referring to Klansmen attacking Nazis, is that racist? I understand that’s not what the post meant, I just mean to point out that the statement is not necessarily racist. It may just as well be a example cultural bias and bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/35 "2014-09-09T19:32:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s the part you left off (for whatever reason): “Would you mind keeping the racist claptrap in the pit”. IOW, “take it to the pit”, as I said above. Now, you can argue that he said it very nicely, but I can also so “would you mind not being so stupid”, but that’s still an insult. I’m a good citizen of the board. I don’t think I’ve ever even gotten a warning, and it’s been over 14 years that I’ve been here. I very rarely complain about moderation because mostly I think you all do a good job, but this hair-splitting rules-lawyering, and general pedantry has gone past ridiculous and into la-la land… “Take it to the pit” is okay, but “keep it in the pit” is not? Or vice versa? I can’t even keep track any more. Am I allowed to say “your claim is false,” or is it “this claim is false” that I’m allowed to say? [Telling someone they’re confused is now a “personal insult” worth a mod note](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17678342&postcount=68)? He was a little snarky, yes, but only a little. Are our feelings so fragile that we have to be protected from any little thing? Is there an officially safe and approved way to tell someone that they’re wrong? I don’t want to start racking up warnings because I let someone know that they’re mistaken about something but didn’t do it in precisely the right way. Tell me the exact words to use and I’ll use them. If I’ve done something warning- or mod-note-worthy in this post, I sincerely apologize, and assure you that it was done only from a because I no longer understand the distinction between “acceptable” and “unacceptable” on this board. **Ramira** - I agree that referring to Iraqis as “band[s] of primitive savages” is clear and unequivocal racist speech, and I’m not sure how that is not blindingly obvious to everyone else. Unfortunately, certain viewpoints are under-represented on this board, and I appreciate your contributions to the board conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/36 "2014-09-09T19:37:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, we can let **Dex** clarify, but **IW** did not request a forum change. He told another poster, in effect, “take it to the pit”. That is standard moderator phrasing, so if “acting like a moderator” is not junior modding, then the term doesn’t mean what it should mean. First off, if “Take it to the pit” is junior modding, then it is the most benign form that has been allowed to be done by just about everyone. Second, even if “take it to the pit” is a moderator only comment because of the formation, that is not what **Ibn Warraq** said, and I apologize if I characterized it that way earlier. What he said was more “post that in the Pit and see what response it gets”, which is definitely not junior modding. Now if he had said “That comment belongs in the Pit”, then _maybe_ you could characterize it as junior modding. But I wouldn’t. “Belongs” is too vague a word. But we’re hyper parsing this here. It sure would help to have a clarification from a moderator. “Primitive savages” does sound a bit racisty to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/37 "2014-09-09T20:02:20Z")
I have already understood that the moderation here does not consider calling arab muslim iraqis as savages e not to be a comment that is racist or hateful and that to say clearly that such comment is racist and request it to be kept in the pit is as bad as this not-racist comment at all. Strange but it is in keeping with the actual style of moderation which cares for the form most. It is no surprise to me to have this made clear Fine of course I meant those things that are not moderated. I think this was clear enough English but since I seem not to understand correctly “Would you mind” as a request and not an order and that the phrase calling Iraqis indifferent bands of primitive savages as racist, I apologize then for the mistake. But I can clarify for Alessan I would not ask for such comments to be suppressed by moderation and have I think never called to ban anything, to avoid any doubts here. It is only the strange standards of what is insulting for moderation, if only to call a thing a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/38 "2014-09-09T20:02:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > If I were a white man, and was referring to Klansmen attacking Nazis, is that racist? I dunno, Boyo–is there a history of white dudes dehumanizing other white dudes by calling them primitive savages? If not, there’s no equivalence here, because nobody says anything in isolation. Words have any meaning at all because of the cultural significance we attach to the patterns comprising them, and part of the significance we attach to them is the history of their use. > [@](#): > > I understand that’s not what the post meant, I just mean to point out that the statement is not necessarily racist. It may just as well be a example cultural bias and bigotry. There’s no reason for such a nice distinction, to suggest that no, it’s not a matter of **race** when someone dismisses dead Iraqi infants as “primitive savages,” it’s a matter of **culture**. What it’s a matter of is the dehumanizing of nonwhite folks using traditional racist language. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/39 "2014-09-09T20:02:25Z")
Well, it seems as though I’m the only one seeing it that way, so maybe I’m wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711/40 "2014-09-09T21:43:07Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I have already understood that the moderation here does not consider calling arab muslim iraqis as savages e not to be a comment that is racist or hateful and that to say clearly that such comment is racist and request it to be kept in the pit is as bad as this not-racist comment at all. And, as has already been pointed out, your “understanding” is wrong. Clearly, referring to Arabs, Muslims, Iraqis, or any combination of the three as savages is insulting. We allow posters to make fools of themselves by posting nonsense in any number of ways. If such expressions are so over the top as to appear to be intended to get a rise out of other posters, it would be deemed trolling. Further, it is not a violation of the rules to indicate that one considers such remarks to be hateful. However, including insulting language directed at the author of such remarks when “requesting” that they stop is, itself, a violation of the rules. In the case that touched off this particular brouhaha, **Jonathan Chance** recognized that the post by **DingoelGringo** was out of line. He further noted that the response by **Ibn Warraq** was excessively hostile. He did not consider **DingoelGringo** ’s post to hve been submitted expressly to troll the board nor did he consider **Ibn Warraq** ’s post to have actually violated the explicit rules against personal insults. In order to keep the thread from turning into a trainwreck of personal insults, he told both of them to stop their behavior. Had **DingoelGringo** gone further and suggested that the U.S. should murder all the peoples of those locations or posted some similar remark that was clearly trolling, he would have been Warned. Had **Ibn Warraq** resorted to directly insulting **DingoelGringo** , he would have been Warned. (And if the direct insults were in response only to the line that **DingoelGringo** actually posted, then **Ibn Warraq** would have been Warned while **DingoelGringo** was only ordered to stop his behavior–a situation I am sure would have really upset you.) We do not have a whole host of categories of misdemeanors and felonies with increasing rates of punishment for increasingly bad behavior. We have two categories: Mod Notes that tell an offender to behave and Warnings that we use to track whether a poster should be banned from the SDMB. It was the judgment of Jonathan Chance that simply telling each poster in this situation to stop would be sufficient. You can choose to be offended that a Warning was not issued for a single, one-line drive-by crack. Your insistence that we consider a “suggestion” that a person post differently is “as bad” as insulting people is incorrect. Context determines many judgments by the staff. In this case, you simply disagree with one judgment (which is your privilege) and you are trying to generalize regarding staff attitudes based on your personal emotions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-equality-of-the-iraki-savages-and-the-avoidance-of-racist/697711.md?page=3)