# The ethical dilemma of "passing" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 15, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036 "2011-05-15T23:28:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/41 "2011-05-16T22:24:37Z")
**Chronos** , if you were a young man signing up for the armed services back in the day, there was a space on the application where you had to put your racial identification. Also, back in the day, plenty of job announcements were explicit about what racial groups were (or were not) desired. I would think if you showed up for an interview knowing they were looking for a white person, you’d basically be lying to the interviewer even if you never opened your mouth. But I think for the most part, passing as white would just mean “playing the part” and lying by omission. Even back in Jim Crow, I don’t think most white people were walking around with “White Power” signs all day long. So if you looked the part, then that was good enough. Of course, you’d eventually have to lie if you got intimate with someone (romantically or otherwise). But I could see a solitary, non-assuming person going along without lying and without necessarily abandoning their family either. They could still visit back home and write letters to Mama and Pop and so forth. They just wouldn’t be holding any family reunions at their place. I’ll be honest. If I were light enough to pass, I might take advantage of it just for temporary convenience’s sake. For instance, if I’m going to see a show and all the black people have to sit up in the hot balcony, I’m going to ask the ticket person for a regular ticket just like everyone else. If the usher doesn’t point me to the balcony, then I’m not going there. Or, if I have to pee and there are only “whites only” toilets available, I’m not going out back to pee in the bushes. I’m going to march my pale behind into the forbidden bathroom. And maybe even pee on the seats! However, I wouldn’t sit at the front of the bus for some reason. I guess I wouldn’t want to parade my advantage in front of my darker-skinned brethern and sistern like that. But how this differs from the balcony decision, I don’t know. Some things just don’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/42 "2011-05-16T22:44:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > However, I wouldn’t sit at the front of the bus for some reason. I guess I wouldn’t want to parade my advantage in front of my darker-skinned brethern and sistern like that. But how this differs from the balcony decision, I don’t know. Some things just don’t make sense. \*Could \*White people sit at the back of the bus? I don’t mean legally, I mean socially. I have to be honest, there are some places where \*today \*as a White chick, I don’t feel comfortable parking my ass. The middle of a group of Black kids sitting at the back of the Uptown bus is one of them. I don’t feel like I’m going to be attacked or anything, but I just feel very, very unwelcome and very, very White. I imagine that pre-Rosa Parks, it would be just rude to sit in the Colored section of a bus or for a white person to go into a Colored restaurant. Have you read _[The Help](http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=The+Help&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10167250243368839003&sa=X&ei=IqjRTefGIYe_0AGIu7WQDg&ved=0CEgQ8wIwAg&biw=1252&bih=548#)_, by any chance? It articulates much better what I probably sound like a racist asshole for saying here. The white women weren’t welcome in the Colored end of town any more than the Colored women were welcome in the White end of town unless they were working there. You just Did Not socialize outside your race without causing trouble. It was just as restrictive for Whites as Coloreds in some ways. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/43 "2011-05-16T22:48:24Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Throwbacks - why they could be a surprise to BOTH of you! Rumors of a slave owning great grandma who had an illicit child could be concocted on the spot. This is true, but I don’t know why you’re making it out to be something that wouldn’t be a big deal. If your child was identified black, then they would be stigmitized and so would everyone else in the family. Your “whiteness” would be snatched away from you. You might get fired from your job. Your wife might still divorce you for lying to her. The neighborhood association may ask you to leave. All because of that fake “rumor”. One-drop rule ain’t no joke. It would be easier, though way more immoral, for the guy to accuse his wife of screwing the gardener who busts up the chifforobe. > [@](#): > > As for the ethics of the situation…given the state of race relations in the South in the 1940s and 50s, I can’t really blame someone for choosing to pass. I think it matters what they do with their “passing”. If they’re just going with the flow like all the other white people, then I think that’s kind of lame, even if it’s understandable. What would be better is if they used their advantage to help the folks back home. If you know you can get a better job as a white guy than you can as a black guy, then by all means get it. But send a few dollars back home. And don’t become one of the racists just to blend in better. I’m uncomfortable with the notion of passing, but if one decides to go that route, I think they should try their hardest to subvert the twisted system for someone besides just themselves. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/44 "2011-05-16T23:02:38Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > \*Could \*White people sit at the back of the bus? Yes, it was allowed. If there were no seats available on the bus, then black people were required to give them up. They were already forbidden from sitting “out of their section”, so I’m assuming they’d have to get out of the “back” seats to accomodate the overflow. > [@](#): > > I have to be honest, there are some places where \*today \*as a White chick, I don’t feel comfortable parking my ass. The middle of a group of Black kids sitting at the back of the Uptown bus is one of them. I don’t feel like I’m going to be attacked or anything, but I just feel very, very unwelcome and very, very White. Well, feelings are neither right or wrong, and kids on the bus are notorious for being loud and obnoxious. But I have to admit I’ve never expected to feel welcomed on any bus, amongst any crowd that I’m not a member of. When I used to ride the commuter trains in northern NJ, there’d often be a pack of white kids coming from one of the private prep schools. I’m sure if I plopped myself down in their midst, they probably wouldn’t have loved it. But I don’t think it would have impeded their boisteriousness or that they would have messed with me. They probably would have ignored me just as surely as I would have ignored them. > [@](#): > > I imagine that pre-Rosa Parks, it would be just rude to sit in the Colored section of a bus or for a white person to go into a Colored restaurant. I wasn’t around during this time, so I don’t know. I mean, I can imagine a few people thinking that it would be rude to intrude on “colored” territory, but not very many. What I think was more prevalent was the attitude that “colored” sections were inherently nasty and inferior…so why in the hell would a decent white person want to even _go_ there? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/45 "2011-05-17T01:32:24Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’ll be honest. If I were light enough to pass, I might take advantage of it just for temporary convenience’s sake. For instance, if I’m going to see a show and all the black people have to sit up in the hot balcony, I’m going to ask the ticket person for a regular ticket just like everyone else. If the usher doesn’t point me to the balcony, then I’m not going there. I would have called you out in the theater, **monstro**. Would have yelled down from the balcony and put your ass on blast in front of err’body. You and Bob Barr and Hoover too. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/46 "2011-05-17T01:47:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I would have called you out in the theater, **monstro**. Would have yelled down from the balcony and put your ass on blast in front of err’body. You and Bob Barr and Hoover too. And I would have turned around and yelled, “Negro, please!” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/47 "2011-05-17T01:49:43Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I imagine that pre-Rosa Parks, it would be just rude to sit in the Colored section of a bus or for a white person to go into a Colored restaurant. > [@monstro](#): > > I wasn’t around during this time, so I don’t know. I mean, I can imagine a few people thinking that it would be rude to intrude on “colored” territory, but not very many. What I think was more prevalent was the attitude that “colored” sections were inherently nasty and inferior…so why in the hell would a decent white person want to even _go_ there? “Rude” is not the way to think about it. You would be chastised by your white friends and relatives for socializing with blacks, and while blacks my not have wanted you there, if they tried to do anything about it, there would be hell to pay. Not so if the tables were turned. I was rather young, but I did live for a few years in the Jim Crow south. We were Yankees, so we were suspect to begin with, but I remember we had a black maid, as did everyone in our middle class neighborhood. My mother used to drive her home when she didn’t have a ride, and our neighbors would try to “educate” us Yankees about the way things worked-- that you just didn’t do that. They told us she would find a way home “somehow”. White women didn’t go over to that part of town. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/48 "2011-05-17T02:14:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This is true, but I don’t know why you’re making it out to be something that wouldn’t be a big deal. If your child was identified black, then they would be stigmitized and so would everyone else in the family. Your “whiteness” would be snatched away from you. You might get fired from your job. Your wife might still divorce you for lying to her. The neighborhood association may ask you to leave. All because of that fake “rumor”. One-drop rule ain’t no joke. Oh, I’m not making it out that it wouldn’t be a big deal. But you wouldn’t HAVE to throw your wife under the bus. Granted, the neighbors would regardless. But you could stand by her. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/49 "2011-05-17T20:44:47Z")
> [@](#): > > I would have called you out in the theater, monstro. Would have yelled down from the balcony and put your ass on blast in front of err’body. You and Bob Barr and Hoover too. **you with the face** , I think you really need to explain this one. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/50 "2011-05-18T02:01:41Z")
There’s a terrific new play by Lynn Nottage, BY THE WAY, MEET VERA STARK, at the Second Stage Theatre in New York. It deals primarily with a lovely black actress trying to make her way in 1930s Hollywood, and like most young women then and now she has roommates. All three are African-American and Vera and one other woman are obviously so, but one is lighter and looks Latina. Because she is: she’s Karen Olivo, a Tony winner of Dominican, Puerto Rican, Native American, and Chinese descent who’s best known for playing Hispanic parts in IN THE HEIGHTS and WEST SIDE STORY. In the show, the roommate changes her name, puts on a fake over-the-top accent, and “passes” not as a white woman but as a Brazilian bombshell. She fools enough people so that she marries a white (immigrant) director and becomes a Carmen-Miranda type starlet. But Vera and her friend have a great time ribbing her as she does so, although they don’t “out” her. Wonder how many light-skinned blacks passed for Latino, or if that was more trouble than it was worth. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/51 "2011-05-18T02:57:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **you with the face** , I think you really need to explain this one. You need to explain what I need to explain. Do you think I’m serious? I mean, “err’body” should have been a major indicator that I’m joking. \*Even though I still would have called you out from the balcony, **monstro**. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/52 "2011-05-18T16:38:11Z")
I think you need to explain it because it looks like you support segregation. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/53 "2011-05-18T16:54:02Z")
I think this is a case of good-natured ribbing of a sibling, **Chronos**. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/54 "2011-05-18T17:57:07Z")
Oh, **you with the face** and **monstro** are siblings? I didn’t realize. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/55 "2011-05-18T18:34:42Z")
**Chronos’s** posts have made me wonder something. Say I’m not really joking. Pretend I am a black person who has told 1960’s **monstro** that if she tries to pass herself as white so she can enjoy certain privileges denied to me because I’m more visibly black, I won’t help her go along with her little lie by omission. In fact, I will go out of my way to make sure people know she’s as black as me, simply by pointing out that we’re twins. Here’s the scenario: **Monstro** and I go to the theater together and for some reason the ticket taker directs me to go to the balcony, but tells her to go to the main seating area because he/she assumes **monstro** is white. What would be the ethical course of action for me to take in this scenario? And along the lines of the OP’s question, what would be the most ethical thing for _her_ to do? Does the ethics of her actions change if she decides to go to the movies by herself without me there to abandon, and yet there are other black people present who are being made to sit in the balcony just as I would have been? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/56 "2011-05-18T20:17:33Z")
Would it be different or not different than outing someone who is gay? I personally think that outing anyone who is managing to pass themselves off as something they aren’t is rude. UNLESS that person is engaged in persecution of what they are pretending not to be or using that sham to engage in something unethical itself. i.e. I’m not going to out someone who I know to be gay, or someone I know to be black, or someone I know to be an atheist, or someone who is transsexual unless I have a pretty good reason to do so. I might accidentally out them - assuming that everyone knew him back when he was she, but I try and be aware of it. But its a complicated issue and I don’t think other people are necessarily wrong - although outing someone simply out of spite is - well, spiteful. (I think the ethical thing for Monstro to do is to go with you to the balcony - she is at the movie with you. I think if she doesn’t, the ethical course of action for you is to say “yeah, bitch” and have nothing more to do with her). ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/57 "2011-05-18T20:36:22Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > (I think the ethical thing for Monstro to do is to go with you to the balcony - she is at the movie with you. I think this would be the ethical thing for her to do as well. But not just because she’s supposed to be my company at the movie. Consider all the black people sequestered up in that balcony, some of whom know **monstro** is black . What message is she sending them, as they watch her enjoy the privileges of a racist system that denies them similar freedoms because of their appearance? I think the message isn’t too positive. > [@](#): > > I personally think that outing anyone who is managing to pass themselves off as something they aren’t is rude. UNLESS that person is engaged in persecution of what they are pretending not to be or **using that sham to engage in something unethical itself**. Well, if **monstro** was going to leave me sitting in the balcony by myself, would you find that unethical? If so, would me outing her be justified based on your reasoning in bold? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/58 "2011-05-18T20:43:22Z")
I think if you were planning to out **monstro** , that would be OK as long as you made it clear to her in advance what your intentions were. And that gets back to one of the dilemmas in the OP. In order to pass, you pretty much have to leave your family behind. You can’t realistically hope to pass in your home town. You have to move away and create a new identity if you want to have any hope of success. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/59 "2011-05-18T20:52:06Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Would it be different or not different than outing someone who is gay? I don’t think it’s unethical to out someone who is gay if they are throwing other gay people under the bus (e.g., homophobic preachers and politicians). I also don’t think it’s unethical to out someone who is gay if they are telling people they are straight. If one of my friends was getting married to someone that I knew was gay, yeah, I’m telling. I believe people should have full disclosure before they conjoin themselves forever with someone. If a gay person is just being themselves and isn’t deliberately misrepresenting themselves for personal gain, I do think it’s unethical to put their business out on the street. Most black “passers” back in the day fell into the second category. That said, I wouldn’t have been in favor of outing these people, unless they fell in the first category. ---
**Author:** ![Beniamino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@Beniamino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beniamino)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036/60 "2011-05-18T20:55:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If a gay person is just being themselves and isn’t deliberately misrepresenting themselves for personal gain, I do think it’s unethical to put their business out on the street. > > Most black “passers” back in the day fell into the second category. That said, I wouldn’t have been in favor of outing these people, unless they fell in the first category. Maybe this is a stupid question, but if a “Black” person looks “White”, claims that he is White, and associates himself with a White cultural identity, doesn’t that make him “White”, regardless of any genetic identification? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethical-dilemma-of-passing/582036.md?page=4)