In that picture, he looks more oompa-loompa than negro to me, to be honest.
So you know my father is a quadroon? Wowzers, man. I really did not know this about my own father.
I know one thing. There is no “most certainly” about anything racial. According to many people, even some Dopers, I don’t look black at all. So…can your predictive powers tell me what my genetic make-up is? Am I mulatto? Quadroon? Octaroon? Or am I just a mixed-up mutt, who’s ancestry can’t be fractionalized in any meaningful way? Because that’s really how I’ve viewed myself all these years. And yet you speak with such certainty! I’m wondering what experiences and training you’ve had to be able to speak so absolutely about racial appearance.
I’ve never thought that the traits that identify me as black are anything but falling on a spectrum. I have lemon-colored skin, which is a bit darker than my dad’s and a little lighter than my mom’s…who’s about the same complexion as her mother but a whole lot lighter than her father was (who actually was “mulatto” according to the US census). If I have kids with a white person, is my “lemon” skin going to dominate over their pale, creamy skin? Why would I conclude this since I have conceptualized skin coloring as falling on a spectrum, attributable to the interplay of multiple genes?
There is no “skin” dominance. I have a sister who’s light-skinned like me. Married to a brown-skinned guy. They have a daughter who’s as pale as my father when he was younger. They have another daughter who’s skin tone is close to dark chocolate. The two couldn’t be farther from each other in complexion, and you would not have been able to predict this based on what their parents look like. Or their parents, almost all of whom are light-skinned (only one grandparent is dark-skinned).
Same with hair. My father has curly/wavy hair. My mother has kinky hair. I have curly, wavy, and kinky hair–multi-textured like many multiracial people have. My twin has curly hair that is not multi-textured. My other sister has kinky, mono-textured hair. So…is kinky hair dominant? Doesn’t seem that way to me. Seems like it’s more of a spectrum, as you would expect with a trait that’s controlled by multiple genes.
Same with hair coloring. I have jet black hair. My twin and my other sister have dark brown hair. None of us have hair coloring that matches our parents. So…why would we conceptualize hair coloring as being a dominant/recessive binary? Why isn’t it a spectrum, just like it is for white people?
Nose shape. Neither of my parents have broad noses, though my father has a more aquiline nose than my mother does. I have a nose that’s neither broad or particularly aquiline (it’s rather average). My twin sister has an aquiline nose. My other sister has a rather broad nose. So…is nose shape dominant too? Because again, it doesn’t seem that way to me.
It is a well-founded fear if you’re living in a racist society. If you’re passing as an Italian or Spainard, you’re almost not good enough for 1950s white society as it is. Father a kid that has a more African-than-European nose and frizzy hair, and you’re basically announcing to the world, “Hey! Check this out! I might be a nigra!” You are saying that this is unlikely, given a “white” appearance for both parents. I’m saying that for a person who is passing, their “white” appearance is an illusion; they just happen to fall closer to one side of the spectrum than, say, their parents. But a little recombination, a little random gene assortment, a little this-and-that with their partner’s genes, and how in the hell does one know what’s going to come out?! No one knows, and that’s where the fear lies. You can talk about “well-founded” till the cows come home, but fear is fear and the reality was real.
Like WhyNot said, it’s not like we’re talking about being dissed at the ice cream social. We’re talking life and death, potentially. So hell yeah, a person would be afraid.
If you wouldn’t mind, I’d like some cites explaining what these dominant African genes are. Cuz monstro ain’t buying this sight unseen.
So you cant distinguish your father from any white, but he is black?
Christ, the legacy of slavery in the US is so fucked up.
Oh, please. First of all, there are more ways to have 1/4 of your genes to be of African ancestry than to have 3 European grandparents and one African. But you’re the one claiming you father can pass as white. If you want to post a picture of him, let us decide if could pass or not. Otherwise, I’ll stand by my statement that few, if any, people with more than 1/4 African ancestry could pass as White.
This thread, with posts from Colibri.
I have a young client who could easily pass (she is 17), but in her community, Livermore, CA there isn’t any point to it. Her father is recognizably a light color of black.
I’ve thought that pictures of J. Edgar Hoover and Babe Ruth have very black features. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that either or both had black ancestry. It is doubtful either of them thought they had any black ancestry.
A movie, The Human Stain, starring Anthony Hopkins is the story of a man passing. I recommend it.
You seem to be either unintentionally or intentionally ignoring my larger point.
It doesn’t matter if one is a mulatto, quadroon, octaroon, or a damn macaroon! If people can tell that both of their parents are black, then they (the parents) obviously have ““black”-conferring genes” present in their genotypes. We all receive genes from our parents–no one is a complete mutant (as you know). Even if one has curly/wavy hair while both parents have kinkier hair, that does not mean the genes determining Africanized hair texture have been wiped out of that person’s genome. It just means that they are not manifest in their phenotype…that for whatever reason, the dice game involving all the genes involved with hair texure rolled a “curly-wavy” trait rather than the “curly-kinky” trait that another sibling could just as easily possess (e.g., my own family with examples given above). Give the dice another shuffle, and you might see some kinks showing up in that person’s offspring, regardless of who they are mated with.
I haven’t been talking about people straight from Africa producing white-looking children, and if that’s what you’ve been inferring all throughout this thread, I apologize for not making myself clearer. I don’t think I’ve done that though. I’ve been talking about African Americans this whole time. We both agree that admixture is inherent in most African Americans, while they can still look 100% black. They can look 100% black, but that doesn’t mean they don’t possess European traits that, when combined with another African American’s genes, will reproduce light-skinned or even white-looking children.
I’ll say it again, just because I like to perseverate. Just because your parents look one way (ie., black) and you look another way (i.e., white), does not suddenly make your genome “white”. You did not happen to just grab all the “white-looking genes” from your parents, and now off you go as a white dude! Genetics does not work that way.
Not what I thought I’d get from someone with your credibility, John Mace. Especially since in that thread, you are making the very same point that I’m making.
I’ll also have to add that it matters where the passing person runs off too. They would be better off running off to New York City or LA or some other place with high racial diversity than they would be to run off to a homogenous place. Because “whiteness” is so subjective. It’s sort of like how white self-identified Hispanics come here only to be “reclassified” out of their whiteness simply because their facial features don’t line up with what we consider “white”. Their skin may have a little bit too much cafe in their au lait, or their noses not patrician enough. Hell, drop the Spanish accent and they could look no different than a light-skinned black person (particularly if they are from Puerto Rico). So if you’re passing as Italian or Spaniard, you better make sure there are some swarthy Italians or Spaniards nearby (but not too nearby, 'cuz you don’t want them to start asking questions) so you can blend in with them.
Black people generally can see my old man for what he is. It’s usually white people who get confused. And when I said that he blended in well on the beach, I was talking about a very specific context. Laying on his stomach, face hidden to me.
But I don’t really see why this registers such a response. Every society is different. Some societies determine race based on appearance, whereas others determine it based on ancestry. We happen to live in the latter society. Perhaps it’s strange…but given that’s how we define race in this society, how else should my father have identified himself racially? His mother was an obvious black woman. His father, while mysterious-looking, was obviously not white. All his aunts were black, and his paternal grandmother was so black that she could have been right off the slave ship. He grew up in an all-black neighborhood, had black friends, and attended an all-black church. Blackness is much deeper than how one looks. There’s also culture, the importance of which people seem to routinely deny.
Well, we must be talking past each other, because you are surprised at my posts, and I’m surprised at your posts. I’m simply saying that no one (or almost no one) who is 1/2 African and 1/2 European is going to be able to pass without an extreme make-over. Someone who is 1/4 African has a much better chance, and that person might very well have two parents who are both African-American. Now, if you’re 1/4 African and 3/4 European, and you have kids with someone who is European, you have little to worry about concerning the appearance of your children, wrt to trying pass. If you’re 1/8 African, I wouldn’t be worried at all. This is what we saw in Sally Hemmings’ children, some of whom did pass into White society (she was 1/4 African, and they were 1/8 African).
If you want to stop this discussion I’m fine with that. We can open a GQ thread to discuss the genetics of “passing”.
I wouldn’t blink twice if I came across this pic of J. Edgar Hoover on the cover Ebony.
Because it makes *you *an oppressor too.
You’ve perpetuated the evil system by participating in it.
Yes
No. Selfish is not a winning strategy in the long run, for everyone. By not standing up and being counted, he’d have prolonged the system more than if he’d opposed it.
I’d have refused to pass.
That’s simply not true.
You have examples of people with one parent who was African (not African-American) and one parent who was European and these people were able to pass as White in the US?
And let’s be clear that, in the context of this thread, “African” means that population of Africans brought to the US as slaves.
Wow, he actually kind of looks like a young Obama in that picture.
I don’t think its that hard.
Yes, you’d have to move. But thousands of young men - young black men - moved in the post WWII migration.
You wouldn’t visit your family or have them visit you. We lived away from my grandparents for ten years growing up in the 1970s and they visited us once. Traveling across country wasn’t that common. You could still write. And you could still visit them if you did a reverse transformation (and didn’t bring your family).
Throwbacks - why they could be a surprise to BOTH of you! Rumors of a slave owning great grandma who had an illicit child could be concocted on the spot.
And that assumes you marry. You could choose not to marry at all. Or you could marry and choose to remain childless to lower the risk of a surprise baby who was visibly “not white.”
As for the ethics of the situation…given the state of race relations in the South in the 1940s and 50s, I can’t really blame someone for choosing to pass.
(Disclaimer, I believe that I am a case of “passing” although in my case I’m likely 1/4 or 1/8th Roma - that’s the rumor - but given the persecution of Roma in Eastern Europe, my great grandparents chose to not disclose that. Roma aren’t quite as “non-European” looking however and there really isn’t the issue of looking in the crib to shout “Oh, My God, A Gypsy!”)
In that case, no, I don’t. Majority of African slaves were from West Africa, and I agree it’s almost certain that’d take a couple of generations of interbreeding to tone down that darker skintone until a scion could pass. I was thinking of other Africans, more recent immigrants.
Quoth WhyNot:
Indeed. A lot more Americans are “mixed-race” than most people think. IIRC, something like 20% of people who think themselves “white” actually have some black ancestry. And even with genes for dark pigmentation generally being dominant over genes for light pigmentation, there are a fairly large number of gene loci which govern skin color, so it’s possible for two people who “look white” as far back as they’ve traced their families to have a kid who still “looks black” (albeit probably a fairly light shade).
On the topic of “passing for white”, to what extent would someone even need to lie? If a light-skinned man went in for a job interview, for instance, would the interviewer ask “Are you white?”, or would it just be assumed? It seems to me that a light-skinned black could “pass” perfectly honestly just by not volunteering information. Is this not the case?
Now a days…it wouldn’t likely come up. People would make assumptions based on your appearance. If you look Asian, you are Asian, even if your mother is white and your father Japanese. If you look white, people aren’t going ask “are you REALLY white.” You might get some impertinence from strangers, or even friends (“where are you from,” or “what nationality are you” - in that way Americans use nationality to mean “my mother’s great grandparents came from Sweden.”)
50 years ago, you might have to have signed a piece of paper saying you were white in order to buy a house. You might have had to indicate race on your job application. I suspect that in certain states, you had to swear you were both of the same race on your marriage license applications (I had to promise that one of us was a man and one of us was a woman.)
It probably depends on where one is trying pass. Are you in Vermont or Mississippi?
At the very least, you’d normally have to put your race on your child’s birth certificate. Not sure about wedding certificate or driver’s license, draft card, etc. Remember, we’re talking ~ 1940s US here, not 2011.
Then there would be the lies not directly about your race, but about your family-- whether you have any, or why they never visit. If you’re trying to pass by saying you’re Italian or Turkish, but you last name is Washington, that might be problematic, and so lying about your name might be part of the package.
Well, I know a fellow who’s 15/16 Irish, but has the last name “Heil”. It’s just that the 1/16 German is all in the paternal line. Still, though, Washington is a much more common name among blacks than among any ethnicity of whites, so I see the point.
And I wasn’t sure whether there’d be any official forms which required race. I imagine that in the 1950s, something like “I prefer to think of myself as just plain American” wouldn’t be accepted, nor just leaving it blank.
Yes, but the story of being only Spanish on your mother’s side would also be a lie, so even if your name is Smith or Carter or O’Hara, you’re lying about your ancestry by claiming to be Spanish. Better to lie about your name in the first place, and forgo all the ‘splainin’ you’d have to do about mamacita *y *abuelita.