# The ethics of bribery **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2002, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504 "2002-03-22T06:14:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/1 "2002-03-22T06:14:37Z")
Imagine you’re a politician. There’s a bill on the floor and you have researched both sides of the issue thoroughly and have come to the conclusion that supporting the bill will be advantageous to you, your district, and the public in general. In short, you’re voting for it. Ignorant of your decision, lobbiests come and meet with you a day or two before the vote. Imagine whatever smooth and subtle way you wish, but they offer you $1,000 to vote for a bill you were already going to vote for. Is it ok to take the money? Is it ok if you knew that the other side had no chance of influencing your decision with more money? You’re taking a “bribe” to do what you were going to do anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/2 "2002-03-22T06:49:23Z")
It’s a bribe. It’s a felony. Go to Jail. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Under the current system, however, if they do not give the money in exchange for a vote, but deposit this money into your campaign fund, it is a legal donation. But you must report it as such, and spend it as such. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/3 "2002-03-22T07:08:31Z")
Ignore the law for a second. I’m asking if it’s morally justifiable. Someone opens up a briefcase and inside is one thousand crisp clean neatly stacked one dollar bills. All you have to do to get it is exactly what you would have done anyway without them. So what’s wrong with it? Where is the harm? Other than The Law [sub]TM[/sub] I can’t see anything wrong at all! I’d be thinking “wow, what a bunch of suckers. This is the easiest money I’ve ever made.” ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/4 "2002-03-22T07:21:19Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d be thinking “wow, what a bunch of suckers. This is the easiest money I’ve ever made.” Each to their own. I’d be thinking that unless it was an extremely important bill, with a narrow chance of passing, that I’d be tempted to abstain from voting on the grounds that somebody had tried to bribe me. I wouldn’t go so far as to vote against it, because I’d already coolly and calmly decided to vote for it. I’d probably either throw the person out of my office, or contact the police to get him charged for attempted bribery. I would be extremely pissed that somebody thought that I could be bought. I would not accept the money under any circumstances. If I was already going to vote for it, then I haven’t earnt that money, and I wouldn’t want to start down that road. I think it would be quite satisfying to turn them down, but still vote for the bill. Why do so many people believe that everyone can be bought ? ---
**Author:** ![Second\_Echo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Second\_Echo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Second_Echo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/5 "2002-03-22T07:40:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Goo \* > \*\*Why do so many people believe that everyone can be bought ? \*\* Because everyone _can_ be bought. It’s just a matter of finding the right price. Some people have high prices, some people have low prices, but all I have to do is to findout what’s important to you and then offer it in exchange for what’s important to me. And for the record, I wouldn’t take the bribe. It just seems “wrong” for some reason. And it sends the wrong message for future dealing. It will be harder to say no next time when the same lobbiests offer me money for something I’m not going to vote for. Hey, I’ve already taken the cash once… ---
**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/6 "2002-03-22T07:57:47Z")
If it is in fact bribery, that is a felony. Even if it’s not a clear bribe situation, _perception_ seems very important in politics. Look at Condit. I think his evasiveness about his relation or association with Chandra Levy cost him his political career. FWIW ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/7 "2002-03-22T13:26:55Z")
If you’re asking the moral question, not the legal one, then I offer the following by way of anecdote: Groucho Marx reportedly asked a beautiful young starlet if she would go to be with him for a million dollars. Her face lit up and she said, “A MILLION DOLLARS? Sure!” He then asked whether she would go to bed with him for twenty dollars. She got very angry and said, “Twenty dollars?? What kind of woman do you think I am?” Groucho’s retort: “We’ve already established that, now we’re just haggling over price.” Bottom line: bribery is morally wrong. Whether you take the bribe before you’ve made your decision or after, what’s the difference? … only a matter of timing. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/8 "2002-03-22T14:13:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*Bottom line: bribery is morally wrong. Whether you take the bribe before you’ve made your decision or after, what’s the difference? … only a matter of timing. \*\* first of all, I **do** think that accepting the bribe, even after the fact is morally wrong. however, there **is** a moral difference to me in accepting a bribe for a vote you would have made anyhow vs. accepting the bribe to **change** your vote. Both are morally wrong, IMHO, but the fact that the bribe **caused** the change in voting makes that case more so (since it also would have affected the outcome). It’s morally wrong even in the situation that you describe since the person making the bribe will now have additional evidence that bribery ‘works’. Increasing the tendency to offer them, which makes an over all ‘additional badness’ factor = morally bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/9 "2002-03-22T14:15:07Z")
I think the point of the OP is that although the guy is _trying_ to bribe, does it constitute a bribe from _your_ perspective such that it would be immoral to accept it? I don’t know the answer to that, so I’ll put a different angle on it: It may or may not be a bribe, but it is surely **stealing**. It is like a store which is giving away promotional items for free, and a customer who doesn’t realize that goes to the register to pay for it. If the clerk accepts the money – which he did not ask for, and which the customer is volunteering – it is very wrong. The guys who are trying to buy your vote are wrong for that attempt, of course, but that doesn’t make it okay to rip them off and accept money for something you would have done anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/10 "2002-03-22T14:30:20Z")
You could take the money, then donate it to some charity, that’d be morally acceptible in my eyes, but I think it misses the question. I would most likely not accept the dough, but not out of moral considerations. My line of thought would be: I’m having a good job as a congressman, not too badly paid (I know others earn much more, but a congressman’s salary certainly is not that bad), why should I risk a scandal that could cost me that job for a lousy grand? Apart from that, I go along with the general view of bribery being wrong per se, so taking the cash would be immoral. I would, however, certainly not abstain from voting as Goo suggests; this would be counter-productive, because it still is a good bill, so everything apart from voting yes would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/11 "2002-03-22T14:52:59Z")
It is unethical. Actions do not occur in a vaccuum. Taking this money violates several ehtical values: [li]It establishes a dishonest relationship with the criminal making the bribe.[/li][li]It establishes a precedent in your own mind for taking illicit money from said person.[/li][li]It violates the trust of your electorate, who rely upon your integrity in representing their interests but have no way of verifying that “you were going to vote that way anyway”.[/li][li]It violates the proffessional standards of your office.[/li] One of the most important lessons in ethics is that small compromises matter. It is in the fine details that one demonstrates his convictions. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/12 "2002-03-22T15:21:56Z")
For the record, if faced with that situation in real life, I wouldn’t take the money. But I wouldn’t take the money because it’s against the law to do so and that money isn’t worth the consequences. Ethically, morally, I’m just not sure if I see the problem and that’s what confuses me. If I changed my vote that would be wrong. If I was wavering and that money swung me, that would be wrong. As it is, I have quite clearly made up my mind so why not take the money? Put another way, why can’t I punish the people who know they’re doing wrong (i.e. trying to bribe me) by taking their money for free? One thing I don’t agree with is **Goo** ’s decision to abstain from the vote. Why? You turned the offer down! Good for you. No harm no foul, now go vote. ---
**Author:** ![lucwarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/13 "2002-03-22T16:15:13Z")
As suggested by other posters, the problem is that bribery is immoral (and unethical) in more ways than one. Perhaps a different crime will help illustrate: If you rob somebody at gunpoint, your conduct is immoral because (1) you are endangering somebody else’s life without justification; (2) you are depriving somebody of their property without justification; and (3) you are putting somebody in fear of injury without justification. So, if you rob somebody with a fake gun, you’ve gotten rid of (1), but your actions are still wrong because of (2) and (3). Similarly, taking a bribe is immoral because (1) you are betraying your constituents; (2) you are taking advantage of your office to get an improper advantage; (3) you are helping to create and maintain an appearance of impropriety and an atmosphere of corruption. In the scenario proposed by the OP, taking a bribe is still wrong because of (2) and (3). ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/14 "2002-03-22T16:50:04Z")
**Ender** , I think you’re not taking into account some fairly basic factors in this ethical equation:[ul][li]As an elected representative, it’s my ethical duty to pursue the best interests, in my most informed opinion, of my constituents and/or of the major political division in which I serve as a legislator (i.e. state or nation).[_]It’s my ethical duty to base my support or opposition to legislation purely on criteria which consider all of the interests listed above.[_]It’s my ethical duty to present to my constituents all factors which influence my actions on their behalf, limited only where release of specific information would result in a danger to the security of the nation or state, or where release of specific information is prevented on legal bases.Any compensation I receive for representing my constituents must be determined through democratic processes which are visible and open to my constituents.[/ul][/li] These factors imply that I must _actively resist_ any attempts to influence me which require me to disregard particular interests or to give special regard to a particular interested party. Acceptance of bribe money, _regardless of my subsequent actions_, would be acceptance of subversion. Rejection of the bribe money, on its own, would be only passive resistance. I am ethically required not only to reject the bribe offer, but to report and document the offer as appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/15 "2002-03-22T16:54:42Z")
I can’t believe people people have any doubts about this. So taking money from people when you should not be taking it is OK? In my book it is equivalent to stealing. Suppose you go to White Cloud National Park. Having been told the entrance fee is $20, you hold out a $20 bill in your hand out the window as you approach the gate. Clearly you are more than happy and willing to pay $20 to get in. Now, should the ranger at the gate take your $20 or should he tell you there is no fee to get inside? In my book, if you are taking money you should not be taking you are stealing, I don’t care how you rationalize it. ::sailor walks away feeling his wallet to see if everything’s still there:: ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/16 "2002-03-22T18:28:33Z")
But **sailor** , I find there to be a difference between my scenario and yours. If someone wants to pay me $20 to get into a park which they could have done for free anyway, and I take it, that’s stealing. They’re an innocent bystandard, ignorant of what the rules were. Here, the people offering you money are trying to break the law. They’re trying to influence your vote. The only thing they don’t know is that the money hasn’t, wasn’t going to, and wouldn’t influence you. But they are most certainly not innocent bystandards. Maybe that doesn’t make it right, but there is a difference. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/17 "2002-03-22T19:36:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > Here, the people offering you money are trying to break the law. They’re trying to influence your vote. The only thing they don’t know is that the money hasn’t, wasn’t going to, and wouldn’t influence you. But they are most certainly not innocent bystanders. > > Maybe that doesn’t make it right, but there is a difference. Well it certainly doesn’t make it right for me. I would immediately expose them as bribers. Isn’t what they’re doing a crime? And if you’re not convinced by the moral aspect, try this one: They offer you a ‘bribe’. You take it and vote how you were going to anyway. Then it turns out they were secretly filming the ‘bribe’ and expose you on National TV. (I would laugh out loud if that happened!) ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/18 "2002-03-22T21:17:43Z")
I guess some people believe two wrongs _do_ make a right and stealing from a crook is OK then. So, suppose I am the ranger at the gate of White Cloud National Park. A guy believes the park is closed but I would take $20 to let him in. He drives up to the gate with his hand stretched out offering me the $20. The guy is a crook trying to bribe me into letting him in, except the park is open and I’d let him in anyway. But I guess it’s Ok for me to take the $20 as I let him in? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/19 "2002-03-22T23:11:01Z")
From a moral rather than legal, approach… You promised in your oath of office to “preserve, protect and defend”. That includes upholding the law. You are morally bound to that oath, and you are a witness to a crime. Which means you should report the attempted bribe to law enforcement authorities and vote the way you intended. IMHO, **because** you took this oath, you have a responsonsibility above and beyond that of other citizens. Because of this greater moral responsibilty, which you voluntarily swore to, you are morally obligated to **NOT** “Ignore the law for a second”. \*\*Suppose you are a citizen about to vote in an election. One of the (stupider) candidates comes up to you and offers you $10 for the promise of your vote. Do you have a moral obligation to report it to the election commission and file a complaint? \*\* Do your elected official and my average citizen have identical moral issues? IMHO, the two are **NOT**. YOU have greater moral responsibility to the community, as well as greater legal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Essured](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Essured](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Essured)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504/20 "2002-03-22T23:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw24 \* > \*\*One thing I don’t agree with is **Goo** ’s decision to abstain from the vote. Why? You turned the offer down! Good for you. No harm no foul, now go vote. \*\* I agree, **Ender.** I’d just like to clarify that I’d be _tempted_ to do that if someone assumed they could buy me off with cash. Then again, if it’s an important bill, you’d probably have just as much, if not more, impact on the people trying to bribe you if you still voted for the bill after turning down the money. Being tempted to abstain, was just my knee-jerk reaction to somebody thinking I could be bought. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bribery/99504.md?page=2)