# The Ethics of Bunting (Baseball Question) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 30, 2001, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991 "2001-05-30T15:09:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2001, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/21 "2001-05-30T21:23:27Z")
It was only the 7th inning. Also, IIRC, there weren’t any outs. It probably became a bigger deal later when, in retrospect, everyone knew it was the only hit of the game. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2001, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/22 "2001-05-30T21:25:28Z")
I wasn’t trying to rip off **Gazoo’s** answer. If I had written my post better, it woulda gone, “At the point he hit the bunt, nobody knew it would be the only hit of the game. If, after the bunt, there was even one other hit, nobody would be talking about this.” ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2001, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/23 "2001-05-30T22:56:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by BobT \* > > Normally, a player trying to get hit intentionally will take it in the arm. > > Cripes almighty Bob, it was just an example. I just saw Augie Ojeda take two to the hip this weekend and it was at the top of my mind. > > i guess I’ll stay out of the baseball threads since everything I say is wrong. > > jarbaby \*\* Sorry, I didn’t mean to be rude. It’s just that if you’re going to get hit intentionally, it’s a lot easier to do it with your forearm than with your leg. It usually hurts less. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2001, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/24 "2001-05-30T23:06:47Z")
If Schilling had had a 9-0 lead in the ninth inning, I’d think it was bad form for a batter to bunt, just to break up the no-hitter. But since, according to other posters, the lead was only 2-0, I see nothing wrong with ANY attempt to get on base, and try to make something happen, to win the game. The macho, unwritten “codes” of baseball are usually silly, and ALWAYS secondary to the prime imperative: winning. I felt the same way years ago when Pete Rose had a lengthy hitting streak. Rose finally went hitless against Gene Garber, and Rose whined and bellyached for weeks that Garber had pitched around him, worked the corners, and gave him no good pitches to swing at… as if Garber had a DUTY to lob up meatballs for Rose to swing at! As if Garber wasn’t doing exactly what he was SUPPOSED to be doing! A hitter is the batter’s enemy. Both sides are supposed to KNOW that. A pitcher has every right to work the corners- the notion that a “real man” throws fastballs right down the pike is absurd. And a hitter has EVERY right to try to get on base any way he can. The notion that bunting is illegitimate is ALSO absurd. ---
**Author:** ![scout1222](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@scout1222](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scout1222)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/25 "2001-05-30T23:31:04Z")
[nitpick] I’ve read this entire thread and heard many times the pitcher’s name mentioned. I’d just like to throw out that the batter in question (heretofore referred to as “that guy” and “the batter”, etc.) was Ben Davis. [/nitpick] –SD Padres (and Ben Davis) fan. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/26 "2001-05-30T23:37:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scout1222 \* > \*\*[nitpick] > > I’ve read this entire thread and heard many times the pitcher’s name mentioned. I’d just like to throw out that the batter in question (heretofore referred to as “that guy” and “the batter”, etc.) was Ben Davis. > > [/nitpick] > > –SD Padres (and Ben Davis) fan. \*\* You’re so right, and the reason I didn’t mention him is that I forgot who it was and was too lazy to go look. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![jcgmoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@jcgmoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcgmoi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2001, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/27 "2001-05-30T23:57:43Z")
Some comments: 1. San Diego and Arizona are battling for 1st place in the NL West. The other teams in the division are close as well and the play-off spot might go down to the last week. One game could be the difference between playing on and going home. 2. I didn’t see the bunt in question but [Baseball Prospectus columnist](http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20010528daily.html) called it “one of the worst bunts I’ve ever seen” and suggested that a 2nd baseman with some range would have had Davis out easily. 3. I’ve yet to see a perfect game but I have seen several games where one guy was perfect into the 7th inning. Schilling pitched a dominating game and he’s having a special year so far but since he gave up 2 other hits and a walk that night and even gave up a run in the 9th his effort was nothing special. So we’re not talking about a “perfect game” foiled by some slow running catcher with no better sense than to try to get on base; we’re talking about a 3 hitter with one run allowed. Games of that quality happen all the time. Here’s the [boxscore.](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/nl/boxscores/2001/05/26/padres_diamondbacks/) ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/28 "2001-05-31T00:02:34Z")
I should also mention that one reason Schilling was as upset as he was might have been that his wife is very ill, and that added to him being very emotional during and after the game anyway… ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/29 "2001-05-31T00:04:20Z")
I perfect game/no-hitter/shutout has to be earned. The way I see it, if the pitcher got a perfect game because the batters were not playing up to their full ability, it is not as outstanding of a pitching preformance. Can you imagine this…Golfers not teeing off with their driver just so Tiger can win the Grand Slam. I would have loved to see Schilling throw a PG, but knowing that the opposing team was half-assing everything so he could do it is dumb. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/30 "2001-05-31T00:08:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*I should also mention that one reason Schilling was as upset as he was might have been that his wife is very ill, and that added to him being very emotional during and after the game anyway… > \*\* Schilling wasn’t nearly as upset as his manager, Bob Brenly, was. Schilling seemed fairly calm in interviews I saw. Some talk radio guy in Arizona was quite upset as was Braves announcer Joe Simpson. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/31 "2001-05-31T01:03:08Z")
I heard that too, **Bob**. I thought I heard someone say Brenly was more or less backing his guy - but I didn’t see the clip, so maybe he was more outraged than just upset? And I guess Joe Simpson was commenting on the game while he was covering a Braves game? I mean, why would he even be asked about it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DynoSaur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DynoSaur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DynoSaur)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/32 "2001-05-31T01:13:10Z")
Well, one would think that there would be an understood coda to the unwritten rule “no bunting to break up a no-hitter…unless it really gives you a chance to win the game” ie, bunting when down 2-0 would be fine. Bunting when down 6-0 would be jerky. And, to throw an anecdote out there, I seem to recall a story about a new pitcher, 20 or so, in the low minor leagues…first start, has a no-no through 8-2/3, and the game, barring miracle, over (7-0 or something) Some bitter minor-league journeyman decides that this young kid’s not gonna throw a no-hitter against his team, by god. So, he lays down a bunt, and of course beats it out. Now, _that’s_ being a jerk. I also heard his own _team_ wouldn’t talk to him after that… ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/33 "2001-05-31T01:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*I heard that too, **Bob**. I thought I heard someone say Brenly was more or less backing his guy - but I didn’t see the clip, so maybe he was more outraged than just upset? > > And I guess Joe Simpson was commenting on the game while he was covering a Braves game? I mean, why would he even be asked about it? 🙂 \*\* From my perspective, Brenly seemed genuinely angry. Schilling just seemed a bit miffed, but wasn’t going to get too perturbed. Joe Simpson was just editorializing like most of the Braves announcers do. ---
**Author:** ![Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ce73a5/32.png) [@Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/34 "2001-05-31T18:24:18Z")
Just found [this article](http://espn.go.com/magazine/kurkjian_20010531.html) at ESPN on the topic. There’s also a [tongue-in-cheek look at some of baseball’s other “unwritten” rules.](http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/caple_jim/1207393.html) ---
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/35 "2001-05-31T19:14:52Z")
The ESPN article is terrific. I especially like the question (asked in regard to Schilling) “What’s wrong with asking the pitcher to field his position?” I guess it would have been “bad form” for anyone to have tried to break up Don Larsen’s perfect game during the World Series. Please. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2001, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/36 "2001-05-31T21:35:00Z")
From the linked ESPN article: > [@](#): > > Baseball codes of conduct have existed since the days of Ty Cobb, who might have invented some of them. The time honored tradition of not bunting to break up a no-hitter is one thing, but the time honored tradition of being a dick is another. On May 17th, 1906, Ty Cobb (a legendary dick) broke up Rube Waddell’s no-hitter with a bunt single. I don’t know what inning this happened in or what the score was at that point, but the final score was Philly 5 Detroit 0. It would be cool if **BobT** or anyone else could find out those missing details. ---
**Author:** ![VileOrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9e8a1a/32.png) [@VileOrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VileOrb)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/37 "2001-06-01T00:25:14Z")
Personally, I think it’s unethical that they were playing back to protest the perfect game. If perfect games were (are?) accomplished through this, along with cooperation of the opposing team not bunting, then that would take something away from the accomplishment. They need to be earned. Now, if it the bottom of the ninth, two out, the infield is playing normally, and the guy at the plate leans into an inside fastball. THAT would be unethical. ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2001, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/38 "2001-06-01T01:42:15Z")
Schilling has no right to talk about class. This is the same guy who bashed teammate Mitch Williams after MW gave up a homer that cost the Phillies the Series against Toronto. As a Philly fan I’m glad he left. He might be a decent pitcher, but when it comes to being a good sport Schilling doesn’t deserve a perfect game. I yelped with joy when that bunt was laid down. ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2001, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/39 "2001-06-03T06:01:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*i guess I’ll stay out of the baseball threads since everything I say is wrong. > > jarbaby \*\* Please don’t follow through on this. I’ve read many, possibly all, of your baseball posts and it’s clear that you’re pretty knowledgeable. [sub]Although I disagree with you about Augie Ojeda, at least as far as his offensive ability[/sub] As to the OP, yes, it’s an unwritten rule that you don’t bunt to break up a no-hitter/perfect game. Problem with these traditions/unwritten rules are, they don’t define things well: Would anyone seriously be miffed if Kenny Lofton laid down a drag bunt on the first pitch of the game? What if the defense had a “Ted Williams” shift on Barry Bonds in a scoreless game (with a no hitter going) in the top of the ninth–should Bonds not bunt because it’s “unsporting”, even though the other team is virtually giving him first base? Personally, I agree that to bunt to break up a perfect game/no hitter when the game is “out of reach” is a crass thing to do. But in the instant case, I think Ben Davis’s play was completely legitimate. Davis getting on did bring the tying run to the plate, after all. Oh, as an aside about getting hit by a pitch to break up a no hitter…Don Drysdale’s scoreless inning streak of 58 2/3 innings (a record before Orel Hershiser broke it) was almost ended “prematurely”: a batter got hit with the bases loaded but the umpire didn’t award him first base because the hitter, in the umpire’s opinion, made no attempt to get out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![nineiron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e56c9b/32.png) [@nineiron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nineiron)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2001, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991/40 "2001-06-03T13:28:51Z")
A few thoughts… 1. If the perfect game were to be broken up via a walk, would everyone be this upset? It seems, from the logic that the outraged people have been using (the “chicken shit”-accusing manager among them) that they would be just as upset. “Hey, Schilling has a perfect game going. You should not take four straight balls; you should swing! Don’t be a chicken shit by getting on base without ‘earning’ it!” Really, what’s the difference between this and the bunt scenario? In either case, the batter did what was allowed by the rules to get on base and hopefully help his team win. 2. Would/should Schilling even want the tainted “honor” of a perfect game if he knew the other team had all but given up, not utilizing strategy and just doing what they were “supposed” to do–swing away, and that they weren’t playing to the best of their talents and abilities? We all know what it’s like when someone humors or patronizes us and lets us win something. (Granted, this is on a grander scale, but it’s a tainted accomplishment nonetheless.) Remember the woman basketball player who got a horrible injury when she was just two points away from setting the all-time scoring record? A tough break, and no record, right? Nope! The other coach allowed her (in the next game) to hobble out onto the court and score an uncontested basket so she could have the record. Congratulations, you now own a record, but its meaning has been tainted by the fact that you didn’t earn it. 3. Nope, I refuse to do it, even though it’s a tradition, like not bunting. 🙂 4. The only way a team could be legitimately (I think) upset at the guy who breaks up a perfect game/no-hitter is if he benefitted from an unfair call by the ump. THEN the pitcher/manager/fans have something to squak about. The reason a bunt is considered a hit, after all, is that it means that batter has earned his way on base; it was not a fluke or cheating or chicken shit or anything else. It was just good baseball. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-bunting-baseball-question/66991.md?page=3)