# The Ethics of Draft Dodging **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927 "2001-03-29T04:23:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/21 "2001-03-29T16:27:02Z")
If you stood up to face the consequencs of your actions I could respect your pacifism. If it’s just your own fear that’s another matter. If you take the benefit but slink out so someone else has to take your place I don’t respect that. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/22 "2001-03-29T16:38:44Z")
VarlosZ Courage is the attribute you are missing. ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/23 "2001-03-29T16:57:08Z")
Varlos, first I categorically disagree with the draft, and any administrative mechanisms that facilitate it. In short, if a country cannot survive without conscription it does not deserve to survive. If the people will not volunteer to protect the country, it has failed and should be swept away. That being said, I view your proposed actions with thorough disgust, and if you proceed with your plans it will be with my complete comtempt. You propose to enter into a contract with your government whose terms you do not intend to keep, and you justify this by saying that the government does not have to right to make such demands. If that’s the way you feel, don’t take the money. By signing on the line, you are saying that you not only agree to the terms of the contract, you also endorse the government’s right to propose the contract. There is no way to keep your honor and sign with your fingers crossed behind your back. If you have the convictions you say you do, have the courage that goes along with them, and pay for your education yourself. If you cannot enter college in the US without a contract into which you cannot, in good conscience, enter then leave and study somewhere else. But don’t lie to all of us who make up the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Ankh\_Too](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3ab097/32.png) [@Ankh\_Too](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ankh_Too)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/24 "2001-03-29T17:10:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by VarlosZ \* > **It can be. Perhaps we have different notions of what civil disobedience is. I consider it to be the utter disregard for unjust laws. Just because one doesn’t get caught does not mean one cannot be engaged in a protest.** Well, I didn’t consider the various burglaries and bank robberies during the Vietnam War to be acts of civil disobedience either. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by VarlosZ \* > **For better or worse, our society has decided that one of those benefits is student aid for those who need it.** _Dichotomy alert… dichotomy alert_ For better or worse, our society has decided that one of those obligations is to register with the Selective Service in order to receive the benefits. Our society has also decided that serving in the military **if** you are called upon to do so by the draft is, for better or worse, another obligation that we have. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by VarlosZ \* > \*\*I do not believe that the government can obligate us to serve in the military at its whim in exchange for said aid, nor do I believe that it can effectively exclude from such aid all those who are ethically or politically opposed to military service (again, see Equal Protection Under the Law). \*\* But, to be blunt, it doesn’t seem as if you’re terribly interested in correcting that injustice. Upon my reading your OP definitely had a tenor of “Look what I pulled off” smugness. You asked about the ethics of defrauding the government not how to go about changing this law. Perhaps it’s just a limitation of this form of communication, but to many people it seems, you do come across as being completely unconcerned about the widespread effects of the Selective Service and draft, and only interested in how you can get the money you need for your education without having to worry about being drafted. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/25 "2001-03-29T17:51:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > Courage is the attribute you are missing. Uh huh. Join the Army. Go to strange lands. Meet new and interesting peope. And kill them. It certaintly isn’t courageous to die for something you don’t believe in. We all really care about defending the interests of corporate America abroad. :rolleyes: The notion that somehow, but virtue of being born, since everyone is born a citizen of somewhere, that everyone has an obligation to kill others because they are an ersatz slave of their home country is ludicrous. **Varloz** has to sign the document anyway or go to prison. That doesn’t mean that when push comes to shove he shouldn’t be willing to go to prison for what he believes in – but if someone put a gun to my head (or threatened to throw me in a hellhole for 20 years) and told me to sign a piece of paper, well, we are all doing what we can, right? I don’t expect Varloz to be a saint under these conditions. Varloz is operating under duress. Not that that excuses more egregiously immoral actions. I don’t think “just following orders” is much of a justification for one’s deeds. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/26 "2001-03-29T19:09:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > We all really care about defending the interests of corporate America abroad. :rolleyes: I can’t tell what you are rolling your eyes at, this statement or that you think its true and rolling your eyes at those who support this. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/27 "2001-03-29T19:15:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Uh huh. Join the Army. Go to strange lands. Meet new and interesting peope. And kill them. > > It certaintly isn’t courageous to die for something you don’t believe in. I never said he had to join the army to show some courage. I consider SuaSponte’s actions to be courageous. Let me join in on the dichotomy alert: How is it that society decided that your college education should be subsidized, but the government illegitemately decided you should have to register for selective service? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/28 "2001-03-29T19:49:47Z")
**VarlosZ** : Ya gotta stop this. Here you are making me agree with **Freedom** again. FTR. I am a legally authorized registrar for Selective Service (for folks to qualify for Job Training Partnership Act services, or the new Workforce Investment Act, they have to be in compliance with the Selective Service act). The only time I’ve known of some one who was able to legally get out of registering, he was incarcerated before he turned 18, and wasn’t let out at all until after he turned 26. I haven’t done a search of the laws around the world to find out if all countries require their young men to be subject to military service, but I’d be surprised if there were many that didn’t. In any event, bottom line, if you wish to partake of the benefits of your citizenship, you should ante up the responsabilities. You were correct when you saw that your prettied up version was still just a simple justification, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/29 "2001-03-29T20:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > I haven’t done a search of the laws around the world to find out if all countries require their young men to be subject to military service, but I’d be surprised if there were many that didn’t. > > In any event, bottom line, if you wish to partake of the benefits of your citizenship, you should ante up the responsabilities. So, you think VarlosZ needs to be punished – to consent to being forced into slavery potentially to die – merely because he was born into an imperfect world? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/30 "2001-03-29T20:16:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\ ***VarlosZ** : > > I haven’t done a search of the laws around the world to find out if all countries require their young men to be subject to military service, but I’d be surprised if there were many that didn’t.\*\* The UK for one doesn’t. Germany is abolishing conscription. I believe New Zealand, Australia and Canada all have volunteer armed forces. I am pretty certain that the same goes for Scandinavia, Holland, Belgium. SPain and France may still conscript. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/31 "2001-03-29T20:16:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\*So, you think VarlosZ needs to be punished – to consent to being forced into slavery potentially to die – merely because he was born into an imperfect world? \*\* In a word, yes. Because if he doesn’t have to do it, than nobody has to do it; and if nobody does it, than his country cannot continue to exist. I believe - but then again, that’s just me - that the existance of the United States of America is a _good_ thing. To abuse a double negative, it makes the world less imperfect. ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/32 "2001-03-29T20:32:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*\*Originally posted by jmullaney \*So, you think VarlosZ needs to be punished – to consent to being forced into slavery potentially to die – merely because he was born into an imperfect world? \*\* No, I don’t. I think he can stand up on his hind legs and say “this is wrong,” he can work above-board to change those things he dislikes about his country, or he can bail out of a country whose tenets he does not endorse. But if he accepts the benefits of a deal with the United States, knowing beforehand he will refuse to honor his side of the deal, then he is a liar, a coward, and a waste of otherwise-valuable oxygen. He could, under those conditions, burst into flame and I would make it a point not to piss on him. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/33 "2001-03-29T20:43:17Z")
**Pjen** my quote is “subject to military service”. Now, I’m perfectly ready to believe that currently in the UK for example, they don’t have a draft, and may not even have what we call a registration for the draft. However, I’ll need a whoooooole lotta evidence that any of the countries that you named would **not** enforce military service upon their citizens should a war break out in their country. “subject to” does not equal “currently must” **jmullaney** hyperbole is neither your friend nor does it add substance to your position. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/34 "2001-03-29T21:15:56Z")
> [@](#): > > People like you really piss me off. You think you have some right to enjoy all the benefits of a country, enjoy the peace and security and never have to contribute if it either inconviences you or makes you feel uncomfortable. Imposter! What have you done with the real **Freedom**? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/35 "2001-03-29T21:33:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > In a word, yes. Because if he doesn’t have to do it, than nobody has to do it; and if nobody does it, than his country cannot continue to exist. Yeah… but if _nobody_ does it there wouldn’t be any more wars. I think I’ll trade nationalism for peace any day! I was having this same conversation in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=65231) with Mayor Quimby, who apparently asserts that Jews don’t believe the draft exists. Odd… I don’t know what you mean by “above board” **Screwtape**. Are you suggesting that if a simple majority of people decide Varlos should march happily off to his death, tough luck for him? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/36 "2001-03-29T22:06:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah… but if nobody does it there wouldn’t be any more wars. I think I’ll trade nationalism for peace any day Erm, yes. My mistake. I thought we were talking about Planet Earth. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/37 "2001-03-29T22:11:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pjen \* > The UK for one doesn’t. Germany is abolishing conscription. I believe New Zealand, Australia and Canada all have volunteer armed forces. I am pretty certain that the same goes for Scandinavia, Holland, Belgium. SPain and France may still conscript. As of 1995, Finland, when I lived there, still required mandatory military service for its youth - I’m a bit fuzzy on the details as to the age of admission, and the length (a year maybe?) - but I do remember seeing all the young, proud Finnish conscripts stumbling around drunk on “pikkulauntai” in their uniforms. That sight turned me against conscription more than anything else - seemed to mock the honor of defending one’s country. Also - in this thread, no one seems to have differentiated among “types” of war which one might be called to assist - I would go to fight a war I believed in, and I would not go to fight a war which I did not believe was a just cause. However, were the shores of the USA under attack, I would be willing to fight that enemy voluntarily - and for those who would shirk that responsibility, while enjoying the freedoms our country provides, I wave a finger and say “tsk tsk.” (I’m stern, you see) ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/38 "2001-03-29T22:11:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you suggesting that if a simple majority of people decide Varlos should march happily off to his death, tough luck for him? I think most here are suggesting that he should not enter into a contract that he has no intention of honoring. If you don’t like the terms, don’t sign up. Varlos isn’t here ranting about how unjust it is that he has to sign up worth selective service, he is here to justify why he should be allowed to steal. > [@](#): > > Imposter! What have you done with the real Freedom? I don’t think that varlos should be forced to do anything, I’m bothered by his belief that society owes him something, even if has no intention of upholding his part of the bargain. **Wring…** I will have to report to my superiors. You are making excellent progress:) ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/39 "2001-03-29T22:36:50Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] OK, guys, calm down a tad. “Liar” and “coward” can be judgments as to Varlos’ stated position and argument, and are thus acceptable. (He can refute them decisively if he shows that his position is not indicative of deceit or fear, for instance.) However, calling him a “waste of oxygen” and saying you wouldn’t pee on him if he was on fire is a pretty purely personal flame. Keep such comments in The Pit (as well as any disputes of my decision here). [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2001, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927/40 "2001-03-29T22:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > Because if he doesn’t have to do it, than nobody has to do it; and if nobody does it, than his country cannot continue to exist. Proposition 1: pretend **Varlos** doesn’t have to sign up for selective service. Assumption 1: things that apply to **varlos** apply to the rest of society. Conclusion 1: no one has to sign up for selective service. Proposition 2: Conclusion 1. Assumption 2: people only do what they are required to do. Conclusion 2: America gets conquered because there are no military units anymore. My conclusion? Sheesh. We don’t need the draft. If we are entering into a combat situation where most of the citizens of the US don’t support it enough _to actually die for it_ then, just maybe, we should consider that we shouldn’t be going to combat. Peacetime military service continues to exist at a substantial cost to our nation (mainly because of economic competition between the government and private industry). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-draft-dodging/59927.md?page=3)