# The ethics of force-feeding prisoners on hunger strike **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039 "2015-02-18T21:32:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/201 "2015-02-22T20:18:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re saying a medical procedure isn’t torture if its intent is to save the person’s life. I’ll disagree with that. A forcible, unconsented procedure _is_ torture. What gives you the right to torture someone to life, against their express will? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/202 "2015-02-22T20:25:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re saying a medical procedure isn’t torture if its intent is to save the person’s life. > > That’s the argument that many of us have been making throughout this thread - and which you have been opposing. > You’ve been arguing all along that forced feeding is wrong in the United States even though it’s legal. So your argument isn’t based on whether an act is legal or illegal. Do you think that amputating hands, beheadings and beatings of a thousand lashes are acceptable. They are legal elsewhere, so surely by your argument they are acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![SantaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/203 "2015-02-22T20:25:12Z")
FWIW: It reminds me of Mitch Snyder and the Community for Creative Non Violence. Mitch attempted to gain concessions from Georgetown University (if I recall correctly) by holding a hunger strike. The Jesuits (again, if I correctly) announced that a hunger strike was tantamount to the immoral act of suicide, and acceding to demands would be rewarding/supporting the immoral act. So they did not accede. Mitch stopped soon thereafter ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/204 "2015-02-22T20:27:19Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re saying a medical procedure isn’t torture if its intent is to save the person’s life. > > That’s the argument that many of us have been making throughout this thread - and which you have been opposing. > You’ve been arguing all along that forced feeding is wrong in the United States even though it’s legal. So your argument isn’t based on whether an act is legal or illegal. The exception from the doctrine of consent is only for so long as the person is not conscious or otherwise assessable for consent. As soon as they are competent to assess they must be reassessed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/205 "2015-02-22T20:30:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If your argument is that countries should bring their laws into accord with what other country’s laws are, I’ll point out that it’s illegal in the United States to let a prisoner die from a hunger strike when his death can be prevented. So by that standard, other countries should adopt the same law. I am not saying that. I am saying it is worth considering why of the quarter of the countries in the world which are western democracies, the USA is the only one that force feeds consenting, sane adults. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/206 "2015-02-22T20:31:59Z")
> [@SantaMan](#): > > FWIW: It reminds me of Mitch Snyder and the Community for Creative Non Violence. Mitch attempted to gain concessions from Georgetown University (if I recall correctly) by holding a hunger strike. > The Jesuits (again, if I correctly) announced that a hunger strike was tantamount to the immoral act of suicide, and acceding to demands would be rewarding/supporting the immoral act. So they did not accede. Mitch stopped soon thereafter That is the same moral stance taken by most of the civilised world over hunger strikes. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/207 "2015-02-22T23:33:12Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’ll disagree with that. A forcible, unconsented procedure _is_ torture. What gives you the right to torture someone to life, against their express will? The fact that if you didn’t do it, they’d die. In most cases, wanting to die is irrational, and a sign of mental health issues. It may sometimes _not_ be, but someone who wants to die should have to be assumed incompetent until it’s shown otherwise. And in those cases where it is reasonable for them to want to die, the compassionate, ethical thing to do would be to help them die, not leave them to starve. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/208 "2015-02-22T23:44:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Do you think that amputating hands, beheadings and beatings of a thousand lashes are acceptable. They are legal elsewhere, so surely by your argument they are acceptable. Amputating a hand would certainly be acceptable if it was a necessary medical procedure to save somebody’s life. I don’t see how beheading or whipping somebody could be a life-saving medical procedure - but the same principle would apply in the unlikely circumstance that it was. As for the legality argument, it was your argument not mine. I was pointing out the flaws in it. From your response, it appears you now concede it’s not a valid argument. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/209 "2015-02-22T23:45:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The fact that if you didn’t do it, they’d die. In most cases, wanting to die is irrational, and a sign of mental health issues. It may sometimes _not_ be, but someone who wants to die should have to be assumed incompetent until it’s shown otherwise. > > And in those cases where it is reasonable for them to want to die, the compassionate, ethical thing to do would be to help them die, not leave them to starve. In your humble opinion. When you consult the law and relevant experts you might find you were wrong. Suicidal ideation alone is NOT a mental disorder in the US or UK. Assisting a person to die is a crime in both the US and the UK. So far as your statement “someone who wants to die should have to be assumed incompetent until it’s shown otherwise.” is exactly what I have posted above and is the law in both the US and UK. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/210 "2015-02-22T23:49:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am not saying that. I am saying it is worth considering why of the quarter of the countries in the world which are western democracies, the USA is the only one that force feeds consenting, sane adults. As I said in a previous post, I find it disturbing that other countries don’t care about prisoners killing themselves. I hope that the example set by the United States will eventually move other countries to change their ways. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/211 "2015-02-22T23:49:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Amputating a hand would certainly be acceptable if it was a necessary medical procedure to save somebody’s life. I don’t see how beheading or whipping somebody could be a life-saving medical procedure - but the same principle would apply in the unlikely circumstance that it was. > > As for the legality argument, it was your argument not mine. I was pointing out the flaws in it. From your response, it appears you now concede it’s not a valid argument. I was not addressing ‘life saving medical procedures’ initially’, but any medical procedure. Any medical procedure is assault if rejected by a competent patient. A medical treatment that causes pain equivalent to torture is legal if done through necessity and with the consent of the person. The same act performed on a competent person who rejects the intervention is assault and quite possibly torture. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/212 "2015-02-22T23:53:21Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I’ll disagree with that. A forcible, unconsented procedure _is_ torture. What gives you the right to torture someone to life, against their express will? As I’ve noted, I once performed CPR on a person because I was unaware they had signed a DNR order. I have to admit I don’t feel like I was torturing that person. Are you saying I was? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/213 "2015-02-22T23:56:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As I said in a previous post, I find it disturbing that other countries don’t care about prisoners killing themselves. I hope that the example set by the United States will eventually move other countries to change their ways. Highly unlikely given different moral axioms. The rest of the western world bases its decisions on force feeding on the importance of competence and autonomy. The USA does not recognise the autonomy of an incarcerated person and removes that autonomy; in the rest of the world they retain the autonomy that all citizens have. Principles of incarceration in the United States tend to be based on punishment beyond mere separation from society and sees the milieu of prison as part of the punishment. Most other western countries state clearly that prison sentences are punishment in themselves and no further punishment should be applied in prison for the original offence; many US jurisdictions allow confinement milieu that are punishments themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/214 "2015-02-22T23:57:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I was not addressing ‘life saving medical procedures’ initially’, but any medical procedure. Any medical procedure is assault if rejected by a competent patient. A medical treatment that causes pain equivalent to torture is legal if done through necessity and with the consent of the person. The same act performed on a competent person who rejects the intervention is assault and quite possibly torture. So you’re now arguing it’s possible to torture a mentally competent person but it’s not possible to torture a mentally incompetent person. Doesn’t that argument seem a little ridiculous even to you? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/215 "2015-02-22T23:58:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As I’ve noted, I once performed CPR on a person because I was unaware they had signed a DNR order. I have to admit I don’t feel like I was torturing that person. Are you saying I was? No. But if they were competent and refused it and you were aware of it, that would be assault and if painful enough could be seen as torture. As you admit you were not blamed for it only because you were unaware of the DNR. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/216 "2015-02-23T00:00:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re now arguing it’s possible to torture a mentally competent person but it’s not possible to torture a mentally incompetent person. Doesn’t that argument seem a little ridiculous even to you? You seem to be having problems with comprehension. I have not said that. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/217 "2015-02-23T00:02:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Highly unlikely given different moral axioms. The rest of the western world bases its decisions on force feeding on the importance of competence and autonomy. The USA does not recognise the autonomy of an incarcerated person and removes that autonomy; in the rest of the world they retain the autonomy that all citizens have. We still have hope for you nonetheless. > [@Pjen](#): > > Principles of incarceration in the United States tend to be based on punishment beyond mere separation from society and sees the milieu of prison as part of the punishment. Most other western countries state clearly that prison sentences are punishment in themselves and no further punishment should be applied in prison for the original offence; many US jurisdictions allow confinement milieu that are punishments themselves. Principles of incarceration in the United States are not based on punishment. That you believe this betrays your ignorance on the subject. The United States has always been a leader in rehabilitation. Pretty much all of the rehabilitative procedures used in Europe were developed in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/218 "2015-02-23T00:11:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re now arguing it’s possible to torture a mentally competent person but it’s not possible to torture a mentally incompetent person. Doesn’t that argument seem a little ridiculous even to you? > [@Pjen](#): > > You seem to be having problems with comprehension. I have not said that. No, it is what you’ve said. You just don’t seem to have been paying attention to your own posts. > [@Pjen](#): > > Force feeding is a medical intervention. > > Medical interventions can only be made with the consent of the patient. > > Consent implies competence. > > Some Mental disorder may remove competence. > > Therefore some mentally disorder persons cannot consent. > > If someone cannot consent and their life is at risk, then medical intervention against their will is possible. > [@Pjen](#): > > The same act performed on a competent person who rejects the intervention is assault and quite possibly torture. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/219 "2015-02-23T00:25:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Principles of incarceration in the United States are not based on punishment. That you believe this betrays your ignorance on the subject. The United States has always been a leader in rehabilitation. Pretty much all of the rehabilitative procedures used in Europe were developed in the United States. The USA was a world leader in corrections in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, putting many old world countries to shame. However in the past 150 years penal policy became aggressive, unregulated and increasingly humane to the point where public opinion became more important than basic human rights and imprisonment became massively overused. Prisons became a place for punishment as a milieu. Over 20% of all the prisoners in the world are in the USA which has less about 5% of the world population. They also carry out close to 100% of all judicial killings in the developed world! It is undeniable that the USA is the greatest progeny of aggressive penal policy in the Western world. Try reading: > **[Torture in the US Prison System: The Endless Punishment of Leonard Peltier](https://truthout.org/articles/torture-in-the-us-prison-system-the-endless-punishment-of-leonard-peltier/)** > > Leonard Peltier, a great-grandfather, artist, writer, and indigenous rights activist, is a citizen of the Anishinabe and Dakota/Lakota Nations and has been imprisoned since 1976. (Photo: Leonard… The use of cage cells, solitary confinement, tolerance of assaults, denial of medical care, assault by guards are all well documented. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/220 "2015-02-23T00:27:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, it is what you’ve said. You just don’t seem to have been paying attention to your own posts. I stand by all that. It does not support your contention. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039.md?page=12)