# The ethics of force-feeding prisoners on hunger strike **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039 "2015-02-18T21:32:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/241 "2015-02-23T22:23:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Pain is not the intent when you perform a medical procedure. It may be an unfortunate side-effect but the intent is to alleviate the medical problem. > > Torture is when you are intentionally inflicting pain for no purpose other than to inflict pain. What do you call it when an ostensibly medical procedure is carried out in such a manner as to deliberately maximize the infliction of pain? How about just with sheer indifference to the will of the subject and the corollary pain, physical damage, anguish, and degradation? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/242 "2015-02-23T22:39:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Prisons do monitor which prisoners are eating and which are not. If the prison suspects a prisoner is not eating they’ll have somebody watch him during mealtimes to see if he’s eating his meals or just throwing them out. Huh. Missed that on Oz. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/243 "2015-02-23T22:41:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Pain is not the intent when you perform a medical procedure. It may be an unfortunate side-effect but the intent is to alleviate the medical problem. > > Torture is when you are intentionally inflicting pain for no purpose other than to inflict pain. > > And your example is silly. Beating somebody up is not an appropriate response to any medical problem. Let us consider the UN definition of torture from: > **[United Nations Convention Against Torture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_against_Torture)** > > The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (commonly known as the United Nations Convention Against Torture (UNCAT)) is an international human rights treaty under the review of the United Nations that aims to prevent torture and other acts of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment around the world. > The Convention requires member states to take effective measures to prevent torture in any territory under their jurisdiction, and for... “…any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.” Now, given that the person concerned has refused consent to undergo a medical procedure (force feeding) and js competent to deny such consent, the force feeding must have another aim other than medical treatment as medical treatment must be consented. Although it is a technique used in valid medical interventions it is being used to coerce and intimidate him and others to end their hunger strike to the benefit of the state by avoiding condemnation over the starving to death as a political statement. When used in such a manner it is torture by the most widely used definition of torture. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/244 "2015-02-24T12:17:10Z")
I am now assuming that given no-one has produced any evidence from the Press or other articles on the subject that within the Western World, the USA is the only country to force feed competent prisoners. No cite for a positive contention, no proof can be claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/245 "2015-02-24T14:38:44Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What do you call it when an ostensibly medical procedure is carried out in such a manner as to deliberately maximize the infliction of pain? How about just with sheer indifference to the will of the subject and the corollary pain, physical damage, anguish, and degradation? I’d call it unsubstantiated and unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/246 "2015-02-24T14:40:02Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Huh. Missed that on Oz. Not really a good source for what goes on in prisons. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/247 "2015-02-24T14:43:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Not really a good source for what goes on in prisons. It’s kept _me_ on the straight and narrow. Or at least made me discrete. IMDB gives it 8.9/10. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/248 "2015-02-24T14:44:30Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > It’s kept _me_ on the straight and narrow. Or at least made me discrete. IMDB gives it 8.9/10. For some reason, IMDB doesn’t rate any of the prisons I work at. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/249 "2015-02-24T14:48:42Z")
I suppose this thread just goes to show how holding an extreme view can blank out reason completely. Almost every legal and moral authority valued in Western Democracies holds that force feeding is torture. Only one country currently engages in it. But they still claim the moral high ground. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/250 "2015-02-24T19:14:14Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > What do you call it when an ostensibly medical procedure is carried out in such a manner as to deliberately maximize the infliction of pain? If that occurs, it should be a criminal offence under any circumstances, not just force feeding. > [@](#): > > How about just with sheer indifference to the will of the subject and the corollary pain, physical damage, anguish, and degradation? That may sometimes be necessary, as long as the pain, damage, anguish and degradation are minimised. Sometimes it’s required for medical professionals to treat people against their will - especially children. Do you think they should be “protected” from life-saving treatment because of side-effects? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/251 "2015-02-24T19:39:17Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > For some reason, IMDB doesn’t rate any of the prisons I work at. 😕 Dr. Nathan?😕 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/252 "2015-02-24T19:51:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d call it unsubstantiated and unlikely. [The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/torture-report-reveals-cias-brutal-interrogation-tactics/story?id=27457494) is unsubstantiated? The practices condemned by the UN Human Rights Commission, the International Red Cross, and the World Medical Association are unlikely? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/253 "2015-02-24T20:16:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If that occurs, it should be a criminal offence under any circumstances, not just force feeding. > > That may sometimes be necessary, as long as the pain, damage, anguish and degradation are minimised. Sometimes it’s required for medical professionals to treat people against their will - especially children. Do you think they should be “protected” from life-saving treatment because of side-effects? That has been dealt with by the doctrines of necessity and autonomy. You should have studied medical ethics before emoting your unsupported opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/254 "2015-02-25T18:19:13Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > [The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence report](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/torture-report-reveals-cias-brutal-interrogation-tactics/story?id=27457494) is unsubstantiated? Can you point to the part of that report where it says that authorities intentionally made forced feeding more painful than necessary? Which is the claim you made (_“an ostensibly medical procedure is carried out in such a manner as to deliberately maximize the infliction of pain”_) and which I was questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/255 "2015-02-25T18:38:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Can you point to the part of that report where it says that authorities intentionally made forced feeding more painful than necessary? Which is the claim you made (_“an ostensibly medical procedure is carried out in such a manner as to deliberately maximize the infliction of pain”_) and which I was questioning. The thing that makes it painful is the simple act of doing it against an actively reacting person. There is no requirement for an act to be of different nature from a legal act to make it torture. Torture js simply the application of pain with the intention of changing behaviour of a competent person without consent. If someone is not competent then consent cannot be achieved and the doctrine of necessity can be invoked. The doctrine of necessity does not apply to those people capable of giving consent should they withhold it. This is why force feeding of a competent person who withholds consent is regarded universally as at least assault and can be seen as torture. There is no requirement there that I can see. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/256 "2015-02-25T19:37:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The thing that makes it painful is the simple act of doing it against an actively reacting person. > > There is no requirement for an act to be of different nature from a legal act to make it torture. So you’re disagreeing with Peremensoe’s claim that authorities are intentionally making involuntary forced feeding more painful than necessary? I’m trying to keep it straight which of you is making which claims. I agree that forced feeding can be painful. And the fact that the subject is resisting may make it more painful. But here’s what I disagree with. I don’t agree with Peremensoe’s claim that authorities are intentionally making it more painful than necessary (this claim has been made but I feel it is not substantiated). I don’t agree with the claim that a painful but necessary medical procedure is torture. And I don’t agree that preserving a prisoner’s right of autonomy is necessarily more moral than preserving the life and physical well-being of that prisoner. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/257 "2015-02-25T19:55:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re disagreeing with Peremensoe’s claim that authorities are intentionally making involuntary forced feeding more painful than necessary? I’m trying to keep it straight which of you is making which claims. > > I agree that forced feeding can be painful. And the fact that the subject is resisting may make it more painful. > > But here’s what I disagree with. I don’t agree with Peremensoe’s claim that authorities are intentionally making it more painful than necessary (this claim has been made but I feel it is not substantiated). I don’t agree with the claim that a painful but necessary medical procedure is torture. And I don’t agree that preserving a prisoner’s right of autonomy is necessarily more moral than preserving the life and physical well-being of that prisoner. The evidence from Guantanamo is that the manner in which force feeding is carried out is designed to make it as uncomfortable as possible as behaviour modification. The evidence from Israeli and UK prisons shows the same. I suspect that this may also apply to the use of it in US prisons, although maybe they are especially caring? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/258 "2015-04-20T09:01:56Z")
> **[Police killer Dale Cregan 'goes on hunger strike for second time' ](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3045893/Dale-Cregan-goes-hunger-strike-second-time-desperate-bid-Strangeways.html)** > > The 31-year-old stopped eating when he was moved to solitary confinement in HMP Manchester, formerly Strangeways, a month ago after being caught smuggling, sources said. Police killer currently on hunger strike for thirty days in UK jail. No force feeding will be used as it is illegal for people with capacity. He is a narcissistic PD and a diagnosed sociopath. He is being quite clever because he is demanding a transfer from prison to a secure hospital because of his mental disorder, but if he has a mental disorder resulting in incapacity then he could be force fed against his will; I suspect he is aware of the double bind this creates for the prison authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/259 "2015-04-20T15:20:17Z")
Hopefully he just (painfully) starves to death since he isn’t part of a larger cause that might provoke/“inspire” future terrorist attack. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039/260 "2015-04-20T17:04:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Hopefully he just (painfully) starves to death since he isn’t part of a larger cause that might provoke/“inspire” future terrorist attack. Wishing a painful death on anyone says more about your moral compass than his. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-force-feeding-prisoners-on-hunger-strike/713039.md?page=14)