It is more likely that the person would forget the combo under the stress than give it up.
It’s fun. For the perpetrators, at least. That’s why.
It doesn’t gain intel, it doesn’t influence behavior (any more than the alternatives), it doesn’t “legitimize” rounding up innocents by getting the tortured to name names (you could easily just say they named names, without torturing anyone).
It’s simply something that a significant percentage of people throughout history, through all strata of society, including government, have gotten a thrill from. And they successfully convince other, non-wannabe-torturers that it’s somehow necessary.
Not ture. Every person has a breaking point and something they value. Success can vary depending on the person though.
I am 100% against torture for POW’s, however rouge terroristic groups are not from any nation, and do not deserve the same rights.
So which is it? Does torture work against everyone, or do results vary from person to person?
As for the contention that terrorists don’t deserve to be protected from torture, it’s not about what terrorists do or don’t deserve. It’s what the rest of us deserve. Do we deserve to live in a society where the authorities have the power to torture us? What protections do we have against arbitrary government authority?
It would be comical if it weren’t so sickening, how conservatives who loudly proclaim their skepticism of government power are so quick to give their masters the power of life and death over them, the power to inflict torture with impunity.
No government agent should have the right to torture anybody, whether that government official believes the victim is a terrorist or not.
Well, that’s not true, sometimes torture just makes people more stubborn. In any case, as i said the stress can make people forget. Even the fucking Nazis didnt make torture work.
We had a big long thread about this. Cite after cite, expert after expert was quoted- torture does not work, in fact it is counter productive.
Another reason would be revenge/punishment.
Also dissuasion - the idea being, if you know you’re going to be hella tortured if you do something and get caught, maybe you won’t do the thing. Although as the Japanese demonstrated in WW2, who were taught that the Chinese and Americans were extremely cruel to their prisoners, it likely as not means you instead will do anything not to get captured instead.
Oh, and DrDeth, from what I heard the point of SERE isn’t to learn to *resist *torture. They know you won’t, and will eventually break, especially since the SERE guys have access to the candidates’ files and have a good idea what buttons of theirs to push. The point is for the torturee to learn their own limits, and also to get acquainted with what they can expect so they maybe don’t fear it as much. It’s easier to steel oneself against the known than the unknown.
I guess another point would be to teach people that it’s OK to crack. It doesn’t make you subhuman or unmanly or what have you.
A propos of the efficacity of torture, I am reminded of a Tom Clancy book, I think it was Without Remorse, where a US pilot is shot down over Vietnam and interrogated by the NVA along with a Russian intelligence specialist. The NVA torture him a lot, but it’s the Russian who breaks the guy, not by hurting him more but by becoming his friend in the respites between torture sessions - talking about anything, sneaking him food or vodka, playing chess, talking shit about the vietnamese, talking about their respective experiences as pilots & comparing their treatment within their respective armies/bureaucracies etc… Eventually the torture stops altogether, but the friendly chats keep going until the pilot realizes that in the midst of all those inconsequential talks and friendly chats he’s told the Russian a ton of top secret stuff.
I’m fairly convinced that would work. Like good cop/bad cop on steroids, or Stockholm syndrome. You can learn to love your abuser *for *the breaks in the abuse - ask any battered spouse.
Yes, they break as it is part of a *game. * Like selling Broadway in Monopoly for say $2000, where IRL it would go for millions and millions.
Indeed, talking to someone does get the best intel.
But guys, again, we’re going off on a debate about how effective is torture, whuch isnt the question, from what I see. We could just resart the torture debate.
I’m pretty sure if you threatened to smash my balls with a hammer, I’d tell you whatever you’d like to know.
Kind of like the “my main man” guy from Three Kings.
But I believe you are correct. If you are trying to extract information, people naturally need to connect with other people. If you isolate someone, completely control their environment, break down their resistance with sleep depravation and whatnot, I would imagine they would be receptive to even an enemy making casual small talk. You start with inane stuff, but I’m sure eventually details on classified stuff would slip out.
As for the “ethics” of SERE, I think the S, E and E would be fairly uncontroversial. But the “R” part is important IMHO. I’m guessing the trainers don’t actually light their students on fire or put bamboo shoots under their fingernails. But it seems to me even learning how to resist psychological manipulation and interrogation is important.
Ever forget a password? Then imagine trying to remember it under that kind of stress.