# The ethics of ST:VGR "Tuvix" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 13, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520 "2010-11-13T02:48:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/21 "2010-11-13T20:48:40Z")
I haven’t seen the episode, but are there even more basic considerations? Like how long is a completely unheard-of species going to live? What minor ailment or allergen might cause his head to explode or turn him into a lizard baby? What psychological stressors from being the product of two people’s deaths? This wouldn’t be a reason to kill a member of the species you ran across while jogging, but if you’re having to choose between two viable entities where you at least have some idea of what they are facing as a species, that reduces the risk that you’ll end up losing all three persons. I think it’s actually quite a difficult question, though when I think of this thought experiment it is resolved. Imagine that a pregnancy weren’t what we expect, but that it involved both parents being linked together and their bodies and “life forces” drained in order to build a new person who is a combination of both. So, for a while, you have A and Z and in the middle of them, being built by unwitting cannibalization of them, you have M. M will die if you stop the process. A and Z will die if you allow the process to continue. You aren’t aware of what’s going on until late enough that M has a brain and thoughts and a personality, and A and Z have slipped into a coma. M wants to live. A and Z had no idea this was going to happen, so the best you can do is assume they would be horrified to find out (or maybe they did know before they fell into their comas). Stop the process, or let the process continue? All are innocent, but not all can survive. To me, stopping the process makes sense. M didn’t choose to be there, but he doesn’t have the right to use the bodies of A and Z to make his own. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/22 "2010-11-13T20:53:20Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > They can’t have been dead if they were able to be brought back. You remember we’re talking about Star Trek, right? Tuvix wasn’t the first time the dead were resurrected - Scotty (The Changeling), and Spock (The Search For Spock) were both brought back to life (Spock being similar to the resurrection of Tuvok and Neelix, only, they didn’t need to murder McCoy to get Spock’s Katra back). Nor would it be the last - Neelix got it again in Mortal Coil. (Apparently McCoy was killed in Shore Leave, too, but I can’t remember the episode well enough to remember if he was dead-dead.) They were dead. As doornails. They had a son, conceived and born at the moment of their death. Tuvix wasn’t a holding cell for Tuvok and Neelix - he was a completely different being, not them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/23 "2010-11-13T22:23:13Z")
The right decision is to separate them and immediately shoot Neelix. I hate that guy. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/24 "2010-11-14T00:01:40Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > You remember we’re talking about Star Trek, right? > > Tuvix wasn’t the first time the dead were resurrected - Scotty (The Changeling), and Spock (The Search For Spock) were both brought back to life (Spock being similar to the resurrection of Tuvok and Neelix, only, they didn’t need to murder McCoy to get Spock’s Katra back). Nor would it be the last - Neelix got it again in Mortal Coil. (Apparently McCoy was killed in Shore Leave, too, but I can’t remember the episode well enough to remember if he was dead-dead.) > > They were dead. As doornails. > > They had a son, conceived and born at the moment of their death. Tuvix wasn’t a holding cell for Tuvok and Neelix - he was a completely different being, not them. I don’t think we’re going to get anywhere with me saying ‘they weren’t dead’ and you saying ‘yes they were.’ If you want to consider them dead then that’s fine, but it’s _not_ a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/25 "2010-11-14T05:20:25Z")
I think one needs to define “personhood” before one can make this sort of moral decision. My personal feeling is that “a person” is roughly defined by some combination of sapience (intellect) and independence (individuality - not to be confused to heterogeneity, as identical twins are two independent people despite their genetic homogeneity), and to extinguish of a being that exhibits these traits is to commit murder. Tuvix fits my definition of personhood. It is irrelevant that he is composed of matter from two other people - at that point, Neelix and Tuvok are “alive” only in the sense that the protein from the steak you ate last night are “alive” now. It doesn’t even matter that he shares their memories, because unless you’re bringing in beliefs in supernatural concepts like the soul, memories are nothing more than brain circuitry and neural maps. If we could create a perfect copy of an adult human being, down to the precise mapping of the brain, that copy would also share all the memories of its predecessor, but would exhibit sentience and independence from the original, and my feeling is that the copy would constitute a unique person. To kill the copy is to commit murder. Therefore, killing Tuvix constitutes murder as well. Even if it brings Neelix and Tuvok back (that just makes it murder with “good intentions”). I don’t discount the utilitarian argument, and in a case like Voyager’s, would agree that _not_ bringing back Tuvok and Neelix could constitute a “wrong” as well, since the ship needs those crewmen. But that just means Janeway was stuck between two bad choices. IMO, she took the worse one, but I can see where she was coming from. As a side note, Joss Whedon’s show “Dollhouse” dealt with some similar issues. For example, if someone’s mind is wiped and then allowed to develop a brand-new personality and memories, does that new “mind” constitute a separate person from the original? And if so, does that person have rights? And if you suddenly have the power to restore the original’s mind and memories, does the subsequent annihilation of the new personality constitute murder? “Dollhouse” didn’t give any easy answers to this question, but tended to learn towards “yes.” I think I would agree. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/26 "2010-11-14T09:02:06Z")
Meh. It’s an artificial moral quandary. It’s interesting, in a way, to think about. But ultimately, it’s a futile pursuit, because it’s fictional and therefore we cannot truly examine the scenario. And doubly so, because it’s arbitrarily enhanced the possible controversy of the situation to milk it for drama. I can’t remember every detail of the proposed scenario, but assuming Tuvok and Neelix post-split can remember their time as Tuvix, and also assuming that they could be recombined into Tuvix a second time, splitting them is the proper choice. If they still prefer to be together after being split, then they can do so, and Janeway can rest easy, knowing all parties are in agreement. If they get amnesia for some reason (even though Tuvix didn’t get amnesia, so that would be… dumb), still Tuvix could record some kind of video in which he tries to convince them to recombine. If they can’t be combined again (why not?? arbitrary plot device again) original Tuvok and Neelix still still get preference over new Tuvix. Having said that, the episode was written, though poorly in terms of logic, well in terms of characterization. Tuvix is for certain, a more endearing character than either Neelix or Tuvok and so I am keen to sympathize with hi, regardless of the other overwhelming contradictory factors. And…if you want to ignore the various stupidities and arbitraries of the writing, well, Tuvok and Neelix agree with the decision so it must have been the right one. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/27 "2010-11-14T15:14:02Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Therefore, killing Tuvix constitutes murder as well. Shooting him dead would certainly be murder. However, I remain unconvinced that anyone was killed at all in the course of this episode–either the two or the one. At least, not if we accept that “transporters” aren’t routinely killing everyone who enters them, and creating identical new people at the intended destination. Again, this may be because I don’t recall the details as presented. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/28 "2010-11-14T15:21:13Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > If we could create a perfect copy of an adult human being, down to the precise mapping of the brain, that copy would also share all the memories of its predecessor, but would exhibit sentience and independence from the original, and my feeling is that the copy would constitute a unique person. That’s what _Trek_ transporters do, right? Except they “use up” the original to do so. But wasn’t there an episode where it didn’t work that way, and there ended up being copies on both ends? Or something? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/29 "2010-11-14T16:17:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > That’s what _Trek_ transporters do, right? Except they “use up” the original to do so. But wasn’t there an episode where it didn’t work that way, and there ended up being copies on both ends? Or something? That’s correct, they ended up with two Rikers after an incident that would, in a sane universe, have inspired a lot of questions about what transporters are actually doing. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/30 "2010-11-14T16:51:04Z")
Honestly? Transporters are magic. There’s no point int trying toi figure out how they work, because they don’t. You can’t analyze Trek technology in that way, because it can do whatever the script requires, with whatever insane side effects it requires. Ironically, Star Wars technology can be analyzed. It was considered secondary to the actual plot, so it would up being oddly consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/31 "2010-11-14T18:42:35Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > The correct answer is to allow Tuvix to live until his utility becomes less than the two original separated crewmen… But that would just be cruel. He’d have more experiences, gain more memories and develop more of a distinct personality the longer you let him live, making his eventual separation back into his component Tuvok and Neelix parts all the more tragic. Plus, we don’t know how long Tuvix can exist before he perhaps can’t be separated at all, thus permanently ending Tuvok’s and Neelix’s existences. If it must be done, 'twere best done quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Misha748](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Misha748](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misha748)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/32 "2011-07-19T19:43:29Z")
The idea that killing 1 person to save the life of 2 is wrong. In all of the Vidiian episodes the vidiians talk about how they are justified in what they do because 12 people are saved for each life they take. If you justify killing Tuvix then you might as well justify Voyager surrendering to the Vidiians because each death on voyager would save the life of 12 people. If you would sacrifice 1 to save 2 then you should be willing to sacrifice 120 to save 1440 lives. ---
**Author:** ![Misha748](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Misha748](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misha748)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/33 "2011-07-19T19:44:37Z")
If you are willing to sacrifice 1 person to save 2 then you should be willing to sacrifice the lives of all 120 people on voyager to save 1440 Vidiians who need organ transplants. After all the death of 1 person gives organs to save 12 Vidiians ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/34 "2011-07-19T22:27:39Z")
Ethically, they should have cancelled the series right there and then. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/35 "2011-07-20T00:37:35Z")
The whole episode is an acting exercise, not a serious attempt at changing status quo. Your objections are irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/36 "2011-07-20T00:56:16Z")
Anything that kills Neelix is ethical. In fact, it is a Moral Obligation. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/37 "2011-07-20T02:04:37Z")
Tuvix’s uniqueness carries the day. In other respects the morality of the situation is close enough – there’s an actual individual in front of you who’s asking not be killed – that it’s necessary to take into account the overall utility of the situation. Tuvok + Neelix \*might \*have more value to the \*Voyager \*crew while they’re lost, but Tuvix undoubtedly has more value to the Federation (and, indeed, the galaxy). Killing Tuvix is, at best, myopic. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/38 "2011-07-20T02:51:44Z")
I never understand why this is even debatable. The show went out of its way to say that this was unethical. The doctor, programed with perfect ethics, could not do it. When he pointed out that it was inethical, neither Janeway nor Kes made an argument that it was. They admittedly did what they did just because they wanted their friends back. The whole show was set up to say that they acted out of selfishness, not morality. EDIT: Oh, yeah. Some of you guys don’t believe intention has anything to do with morality. I guess that’s something. But know that you practicing death of the author when you use that argument. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/39 "2011-07-20T23:51:18Z")
If it was just that big a deal they should’ve duplicated Tuvix ala Will/Tom Riker and then split one of them back into Tuvok and Neelix. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520/40 "2011-07-22T18:51:26Z")
I see this thread has been brought back from the dead, and it didn’t even have to go through the transporter… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-st-vgr-tuvix/560520.md?page=3)