# The ethics of tear gas for crowd control **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 30, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389 "2020-08-30T18:56:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/1 "2020-08-30T18:56:43Z")
This article was in our weekend paper. It discusses how a chemical weapon designed for war ended up controlling crowds. I’m sure that is a difficult thing to do. But I’d never thought about the ethics of it, and am curious what you think. > **[Opinion: Tears for fears: How did wartime chemicals become a standard part of...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-behind-the-smoke-screen-the-clouded-history-of-tear-gass-journey/?symbol=print-msg)** > > Over the past century, chemical weapons that were made illegal in war have become common tools for police – and the questions about how safe and humane they are have never gone away. Now more than ever, those questions must be raised again ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/2 "2020-08-30T19:02:20Z")
I live in Left Coast Portland so my views on this issue are probably pretty clear–this shit needs to cease and never come back. Along with LRADs, flashbangs, rubber bullets, beanbag guns and the rest of it. The tear gas is the worst though, it’s killing off a lot of the trees downtown, is getting into the Willamette and who knows what that’s going to do to the fish and has made numerous people sick in their own homes because that shit does NOT stay where they blow it off, it gets EVERYWHERE and people, y’know, LIVE HERE. It’s sick and lazy and on top of everything else they’ve been using tear gas grenades that are extremely past their sell-by date–some canisters have been picked up that are over 20 years old and it’s definitely not recommended to use such extremely expired items. Who knows what the long term effects will be? It’s not like the cops give a shit though. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/3 "2020-08-30T20:48:49Z")
One of the misconceptions that people that have no problem with its use of it is that it is a gas. It is not a gas, it is a powder. Which means that it acts like dust, it clings to and settles on everything. It enters people’s homes that have nothing to do with this, leaving a toxic residue for the family to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/4 "2020-08-30T20:51:04Z")
What’s the alternative, though? You need a non-lethal way of getting a crowd to disperse. Should the police use [microwave pain rays, the way the U.S. Army is experimenting?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System) That would raise ethical issues as well. One way or another, you need a non-lethal way to disperse a crowd. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/5 "2020-08-30T21:05:06Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > One way or another, you need a non-lethal way to disperse a crowd. The vast majority of the time, the crowd doesn’t need dispersing. And the tear gas always seems to be aimed at those who are doing nothing. The few who are causing trouble are ignored. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/6 "2020-08-30T21:47:05Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The vast majority of the time, the crowd doesn’t need dispersing. QFT  ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/7 "2020-08-31T21:10:40Z")
From what I’ve seen of the protests in Denver tear gas is pretty awesome. Back at the start of the protests here some protesters built a barricade to fight to police over and the police cleared them out in about 30 seconds with tear gas. This [video of the event](https://9news.com/embeds/video/73-40aa44eb-fcc5-4218-bfce-11769659f9cb/iframe?jwsource=cl) really shows how effective it was. That basically ended the conflict in Denver and we haven’t gotten anywhere near those levels since. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/8 "2020-08-31T21:54:02Z")
I am sure that crowd control is difficult and it may be true that using chemical powders is relatively safer than physical confrontation. I am sure it is more effective in some circumstances. But if it isn’t considered kosher in warfare, which may be a grey area, then the ethics of it are not beyond debate. I would want to ensure the effects are well studied and it genuinely has few physical long term effects before using it on civilians, especially if they are not unlawful or it damaged property or could cause unanticipated damage in some people. The armed forces are not permitted to be at war with civilians. And effects apply to the users too - the police also need occupational safety. Perhaps the police could get giant speakers and play “Loving You” at top volume instead? But that might have even longer term psychological sequelae; cause more occupational malaise. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/9 "2020-08-31T21:57:53Z")
Oredigger77, that sounds to me like the use of tear gas was the confrontation. Congress shall make no law … prohibiting the … right of the people peaceably to assemble. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/10 "2020-08-31T22:04:13Z")
That wasn’t a peaceable assembly that built barricades across public streets and was lighting the city on fire. Congress made no law. There are lots of laws governing the time and place of assembly that are perfectly constitutional including curfews on public property which was the law that was being enforced here. I’m not saying tear gas is always the correct solution but as someone who has been gassed multiple times as an innocent bystander I am totally ok with its use given certain circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![HammondsCollapse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecb155/32.png) [@HammondsCollapse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HammondsCollapse)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/11 "2020-09-01T11:12:17Z")
If a protest breaks out into a riot I think it’s good to have the option. I remember when I was in basic training and we had to go to the gas chamber, everybody was sick from some virus going around the barracks and all the snot and stuff came out along with the saliva and tears, people were throwing up and crying. I think exposure over time makes you sort of immune to the effects, the drill sergeants stood in there the whole time with no mask and they seemed to handle it fine. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/12 "2020-09-01T14:11:26Z")
> [@HammondsCollapse](#): > > If a protest breaks out into a riot I think it’s good to have the option. I remember when I was in basic training and we had to go to the gas chamber, everybody was sick from some virus going around the barracks and all the snot and stuff came out along with the saliva and tears, people were throwing up and crying. Yes, but using it on a protest risks turning it into a riot. Which is great, when that’s the point. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/13 "2020-09-01T15:10:54Z")
The option ought to be available, I agree, but police need to be better-trained to know how and when to use it, and authorization ought to be required by a very senior officer if not the chief of police or even the mayor. In a democracy, it should not be used as often as it seems to be these days IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/14 "2020-09-01T16:06:25Z")
That’s a good idea. The police should have a lot of latitude, they need it. But with comparable and meaningful oversight and perhaps personally signing off on anything unusual, controversial or drastic. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/15 "2020-09-01T16:52:12Z")
Hong Kong police had [very specific rules of engagement](https://edition.cnn.com/asia/live-news/hong-kong-july-1-protests-intl-hnk/h_30e817bb7494670f9f014724f81c5d93) involving a series of colored flags around the use of tear gas. They were often criticized for abusing the flag system or sometimes straight up not following it but the majority of time, the flag system worked as intended. Do American police have something similar? I think I would be OK with the use of tear gas as long as anyone who did not want to be tear gassed always had adequate warning so they could clear the area independently and every use of tear gas had to generate a post-mortem report that would be available to the public and reviewed by an independent civilian review board that could enact meaningful penalties if the Rules of Engagement were breached. Given how impossible those conditions sound in the current state of American policing, I don’t support the use of teargas by any American police department. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/16 "2020-09-01T17:14:02Z")
> [@HammondsCollapse](#): > > I think exposure over time makes you sort of immune to the effects, the drill sergeants stood in there the whole time with no mask and they seemed to handle it fine. Same thing when I was in Navy boot camp; the instructors would be bare-faced while us boots had masks on, at first. The day we had it there was some kind of hangup in the morning so they were rushing us through in the afternoon. When I put on the mask it hadn’t been aired out sufficiently by the previous user so my eyes started stinging. _Is this thing leaking?_ I thought, then we had to remove the masks. _Nope, it was working just fine – sure wish I still had it on!_ ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/17 "2020-09-01T17:15:23Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Hong Kong police had [very specific rules of engagement](https://edition.cnn.com/asia/live-news/hong-kong-july-1-protests-intl-hnk/h_30e817bb7494670f9f014724f81c5d93) involving a series of colored flags around the use of tear gas. They were often criticized for abusing the flag system or sometimes straight up not following it but the majority of time, the flag system worked as intended. > > Do American police have something similar?.. Not that I’ve ever heard of. ---
**Author:** ![KMS94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ad7895/32.png) [@KMS94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KMS94)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/18 "2020-09-01T17:40:36Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > But if it isn’t considered kosher in warfare, which may be a grey area, then the ethics of it are not beyond debate. Hollowpoint bullets are also outlawed by the military, but carried by practically every law enforcement officer in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/19 "2020-09-03T02:39:29Z")
Why do cops need those? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2020, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389/20 "2020-09-03T02:43:11Z")
They don’t (or shouldn’t) over-penetrate and endanger bystanders. There’s always the risk of non-expansion for various reasons. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ethics-of-tear-gas-for-crowd-control/919389.md?page=2)