The ethics of violating "abandoned" copyrights

In that case, how would anyone else distribute it? I certainly don’t think the copyright holder should be forced to give away copies… but I don’t see how else anyone would get a copy of this undesirable work, if the copyright holder never distributed it himself.

Well, we can argue about whether that implies “ownership”. Certainly, it isn’t the same kind of ownership that you have over your car or your computer, which will never expire, has no exceptions, doesn’t depend on how original your car and computer are, and is not specifically granted for “limited times” by the Constitution.

But I think that since we aren’t debating the legality of abandoned copyrights, the intent of copyright is at least as important as the specific rights: “To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries”

Sitting on a work doesn’t promote progress of any kind, it can only stifle it.

Not so. There are vague exceptions for fair use, which you mentioned yourself, and there are others - if I buy a CD, the artist can’t tell me not to listen to it in my car or on a Thursday; he can only tell me not to make copies of it, and even then, I can legally make copies against his wishes in some cases (e.g. under the Audio Home Recording Act).

With all due respect: Get over it. If you want to discuss what I said in another thread months ago, then start your own thread instead of polluting this one. Thank you.

I think you are misunderstanding my reasons for “reminding” you of your previous statements. It wasn’t to further the debate with you. It was just to give a clear picture of where you stand. I mean, certainly I know you are not going to deny that you believe all the things I stated above. So what is the harm in me bringing them up? It isn’t like these beliefs are anything that you want to keep secret, are they?

After all, in this thread, you only mentioned that you don’t think artists that “release” their work should be able to then prevent it from being distributed, but you really believe far much more than that. Like, you think that photo labs or framing shops (or just anyone who sees something in someone else’s house) should be able to then freely distribute copies of that work.

So, what was the harm in mentioning the above? It is what you believe, after all.

Quite frankly, I don’t see the problem. Nobody’s hurt by your downloading. Go for it.

Ethically, what if the copywrite holder is dead, and anybody who put any effort whatsoever into the work is dead, and the only one who owns it is a souless corporation with whom there is a 99% chance they won’t release? What then?

If you want to discuss whether your summaries are accurate, then again, find another place to do it. I’m quite capable of stating my own views when they’re relevant; your help in giving a “clear picture” of where I stand is neither requested nor appreciated, and I will not let you turn this into a debate over exactly what I believe based on what I posted months ago.

They are accurate, and can easily be backed up. If they were not accurate, I have no doubt that you’d be vehemently denying them right now.

That’s simply all I wanted to point out. I think it’s disingenuous to imply that you think it’s “wrong” for an artist to publish a work (as in, publish, you know, make copies and distribute them and possibly sell them to the public) and then change their mind and not want the work released anymore (you think that’s an “abuse” of copyright), when in fact you believe it should go much farther than that.

That’s simply all I wanted to point out. That’s it. I am not here to renew a debate with you over the subject. Trust me, I won’t be doing that unless you explicitly want to. (And even then—no. I’m tired right now.)

I simply saw no reason to not mention that your idea of “publish” or “distribute” apparently also means having something in your home where other people can see it, or taking it to a photo lab, getting a copy made of it at Kinko’s, or having it framed at a framing shop.

I never anticipated any need to “discuss” whether these “summaries” are “accurate,” since your statements are on the linked thread (and on the thread that is linked to on that thread) make that all pretty clear. That is all.

I will attempt to keep a low profile while you debate and discuss this issue with Starving Artist. Enjoy! :slight_smile:

I believe the intent is that I can create something without having it snatched away from me as soon as I create it, to be used/seen/heard/perverted by anyone and everyone without my consent, knowledge, or compensation.

What gives you the right to use/see/hear/whatever, something I create? If I wrote a book and I let Someone Famous and Respected read it, and they said it was the best book they’d ever read, and that it changed their life, but I decided not to release it, what right do you have to acquire a copy of my book?

A few scenarios would be if copies got passed around among band members, their friends and families, record company employees, etc. I should probably point out also the fact they would possess these copies would not negate the owner’s copyright.

True. I intended to include a fair use reference in my previous post but forgot.

that people can think that what is legal or illegal determines what is moral.

It’s like asking whether it is “ethical” to drive 26 mph in a 25 mph zone. The ethics of the situation are determined by the particulars of the situation and ethical principles. It may be unethical to drive 15 mph in the zone if it’s icy and you are likely to get in an accident at that speed.

The ethics of so-called “intellectual property” are especially dicey and regularly debated on these boards. My principles are basically as follows:

  1. Plagiarism is lying and is thus clearly unethical. Pretty B&W.

  2. If anyone is to profit from the creation of a work, it should be those who put effort into the creation/distribution/etc. of that work. That is, if I write something and then forget about it, it would be unethical for others to profit from it without any regard to my benefit. This is not to say, however, that someone should always be able to profit from a work.

  3. After someone or some company profits reasonably from a work, it doesn’t matter if they profit from further copies or not. That is, Britney Spears and all concerned are hardly being violated when someone rips an MP3 of one of her “hits.”

  4. After a reasonable time limit, a work should be in the public domain. I think 50 years is fair. Maybe less.

Basically I’m appealing to common ethical sense here.

I understand the feeling that you should be able to control what happens to your intellectual creations, but I’m not convinced that anyone else ethically needs your consent in order to use them.

Just like children, intellectual creations take on a life of their own at some point. Sharing common experiences with others is part of being human, and when your work becomes part of a culture, I believe others have as much right to use it as you do.

Now, if you can get rich providing those works to others, more power to you; but if you don’t want to distribute them, step aside and let someone else do it.

If you’re concerned that something you made doesn’t “properly represent” what you want to achieve - well, I’m sorry. I don’t see anything wrong with judging people by their actions, including the act of writing a bad song. A football player who throws a bad pass doesn’t get to say “Don’t tell anyone about this, it was inferior work and it might hurt my reputation to have clips of it floating around.” :wink:

My right to use it is not covered by copyright, and ethically, I don’t see why I should need permission to use it. My question is, what gives you the right to tell Someone Famous not to show me a copy of the book?

All right, I see what you meant. My answer is the same as above: Other people have no ethical obligation to get permission before copying it, only to reimburse the creator. If the creator decides he isn’t interested in being paid for copies of his work, then he cuts himself out of the loop.

[QUOTE=Chairman Pow]
Actually, there’s a peculiar grey area called “abandoned ware.” According to some friends of mine, abandond ware is software that hasn’t been in production for a certain amount of time (or with new versions released).

[quote)My attempts, back in the day didn’t lead me to anything conclusive as to the legality. Some sites seemed to be pretty extensive and I’m sure someone would have tried to shut them down.[/QUOTE]

As i wrote above, I download abandonware games, quite always from the same site, which puts online only material which isn’t available for sale anymore (if it’s available for sale, they provide a link to a site where you can find it).
I remember they’ve been threatened once by a law firm acting on the behalf of a game company (the site’s owner essentially didn’t care since he lived in a foreign country), so it seems it’s perfectly possible to try to shut them down, legally (and I can’t see why it wouldn’t) . However, the mails he received where “standard forms” most probably sent to various sites where games can be downloaded from (warez) whether or not they’re still sold or not, given the text of the letter (he published it on his site) which wouldn’t apply to this site.
Games are no different AFAIK than books, movies, etc…except that, as already mentionned, an old game, contrarily to an old book has essentially 0% chance of being published again, because the potential market for it is close to unexistant, and because, as mentionned by another poster above, many copyright’s owners aren’t even aware they own them (due to the number of companies which have dissapeared, have been bought, etc…). That according to the site’s owner.
Still according to him, individuals who happen to own the copyrights are usually willing to have it distributed for free (since they tend to like their forgotten work to be still used by someone, somewhere) but companies aren’t in any case, seeing no reason to release their grasp on their intellectual property. They can’t profit from a free distribution, so have no particular reason to accept it, and if only “just in case” or in order not to cause a precedent, they won’t allow it. Why would they? They would have to investigate on a case by case basis (if only to make sure they are actually the copyright’s owners), to have someone decide whether or not allowing such a distribution could hurt them financially in some way in the present or future, etc…It certainly makes much more sense from their point of view to just say “no”.
However, they don’t have much incentive to go after someone distributing for free a product which hasn’t been on sale for say, 15 years and won’t ever be published again (computer games are extremely short-lived products, by comparison to essentially all other copyright-protected works). Hiring a lawyer to hunt down the distributors of abandonware would necessarily cost much more than their financial loss, which is exactly zero.
So, IMO, it’s not so much that there’s something special about “abandonwares” from a copyright point of view, but rather that there’s no incentive to actually try to shut down the sites distributing them, except, as mentionned in my example at the beginning of this post, as part of a general operation targeting indiscriminately sites making games available for download (make a search on google, send a standard e-mail, 5 minutes total, and amongst the recipients, a fair number will actually be the warez sites the companies are really after). Of course, I’ve no particular personnal direct knowledge about this topic, so I might be wrong.

Actually, I’m not. This goes back to the 1970s. But the DMB is a good example, too.

Examples of copyrighted works being out of authors controls…

JRR Tolkein’s Lord of the Rings in the USA.

U2’s ‘Achtung Baby’ sessions being released months prior to the CD. Including some songs that never later surfaced.

Endless Bob Dylan demos that left his control and later circulated.

Also endless bootleg tapes of concerts.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. My parents have an old paperback collection, the author’s authorized version. Of course, this was back in the 1960s or 1970s.

This would seem to be an excellent time to pimp Free Culture, an IMHO excellent book by Lawrence Lessig (who is a lawyer who represented those who wished to overturn the Sonny Bono Copyright Extention Act.)

This is really an interesting question because the amount of “abandoned” copyrights is far greater than the number of currently active ones, especially as you go farther back in time. There are several 50s and 60s science fiction authors who I would love to read but have never been able to find their works in print. Sometimes the people who own the copyright don’t have any idea that they own it, especially if it was originally owned by a corporation that’s gone through several aquisitions. That means that even if you want to license something, you can’t figure out who to ask! But of course if you’re successful then your chances of being sued go way up.

I encountered this problem when I wanted to direct a play by a fairly famous playwright at my college. After contacting various agents, holding companies, publishing houses, and so on, in an attempt to pay my royalty fees, I found that no one knew who held the rights. This one was written before he got famous, and he’d transferred the copyright, and I couldn’t find out where it ended up (I did, however, talk to several nice people who did try to help). I ended up doing the play anyway, although I felt somewhat guilty about it, but I’ve always wondered about the problem since then.

Copyright is a check on the free market for pretty obvious reasons; to protect the interests of the creator of the material. But it seems bizarre that a “dead” copyright can continue to serve this function, especially when there’s money involved. Someone might reprint those books from the 1950s, or do a large-scale revival of that play.

And if my work never “becomes part of a culture?” Or, at what point does my work become part of the culture?

But, then, a football player who throws a bad pass is playing in a public place, or has signed a contract allowing viewing and recording of his “work.” If I write a crappy song or book in my house, or in a private recording studio, or whatever, and you think you have a right to listen to it “just because,” I don’t see any analogy.

Your right to “use” it (dependant on how you define “use”) may not be covered by copyright, but how you got it sure is, and if you feel ethically justified in acquiring it illegally, then of course you wouldn’t see why you’d need permission. In answer to the second question, U.S. Copyright Law, section 106, clause three specifically gives the copyright holder the exclusive right “to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;”

If you’re talking about a person I gave the book to selling or giving the book away, that’s one matter, but you said “copy of the book,” so if you’re talking about that person making a copy of my book and giving it to you, that’s another matter entirely.

So I can help myself to anything of yours that I like without an obligation to get your permission, as long as I reimburse you if you ask for it? Where’re your keys?

I really hate this analogy. Taking my car without my permission leaves me without a car. Using a copy of a song/written work/art work to create something else leaves the original intact.

If I had a car that you could copy and use without asking while still leaving me with my original, you’d be more than welcome to it. Especally if I made some money out of it.

It seems that we have a fundamental disagreement about the nature and purpose of copyright. One is a pragmatic view. People should be granted a copyright so they can profit from their work. If anyone was able to copy and sell a book, movie, or music then the people who produce those works wouldn’t be able to make a living writing books, or making movies or music. And if people can’t make a living writing or making music, there will be less writing, less music, less movies.

On the other hand, we have people arguing that someone who produces a work has a very real metaphysical ethical ownership of that work, and has broad rights over that work. If an author writes a book, that book is HIS.

But I don’t think the strict analogy to regular property applies very well to intellectual property. Yes, we can agree that some sort of legal category like intellectual property should exist, for various reasons. But making a copy of a work is not strictly analgous to stealing tangible property.

The thing is, our notion of intellectual property has always depended on technology. Take the middle ages. There was no such thing as intellectual property. It would have been thought crazy to insist that someone who owned a book couldn’t make a copy of that book. Since every copy had to be made by hand, copying rare books was the only way for those works to be preserved. If anyone wrote a book they would be flattered and pleased to learn that someone somewhere had made a copy of it, since without copying their work would die. But of course under such a system there was no way for a person to earn a living or personally profit from their intellectual work.

In comes the printing press, and suddenly books become massively cheaper. People start making books, not for their own use, but with the intent of selling them. Hundreds, even thousands of copies! At first the medieval concepts of intellectual property continued. The profit was in producing copies of the books, not in producing the content of the books. If a printer made 300 copies of a book, his property was the books themselves. The books themselves were tangible property, but the contents were irrelevant.

But pretty soon people began creating content for books, with the intent of printing the books and making a profit selling the books. But still the only real way to make money was selling the books themselves, since if your book was popular anyone could print copies and sell them themselves. And so the concept of intellectual property arose. Trade secrets used to be, well, secret, because if your competitors found out how you accomplished some task they would imitate it and destroy your advantage. But if the state granted you a patent, you would get a temporary legal monopoly on your former secret enforced by the state, in return for revealing the secret. And under copyright, the state would grant you exclusive right to publish or transfer ownership of your work, under the theory that unless they did that you wouldn’t produce the work in the first place.

But the original intent of intellectual property rights wasn’t a recognition that owners had an ethical hold over the things they produced. It was a recognition that without some incentive to produce works there would be vastly fewer works available for everyone. In other words, the public good is served by enforcing the private ownership of intellectual property.

The right to make and sell copies of a book was chosen because it was something enforceable. Since it was still difficult and expensive to print books, and books mostly had to be sold openly to make a profit, it was easy for an author’s agents or the state to track down and stop people who made and sold illegal copies. And there was no incentive for someone to give away copies, since it would be extremely costly for them to produce the copies in the first place. If no one can profit by selling the illegal copies, they won’t make illegal copies in the first place. That is why copying intellectual property came to be seen as the offense. It wasn’t illegal to read a friend’s copy of a book, or open a library and let everyone read your copy of the book, or to give away or sell a copy of a book you bought from the author or his agents. It didn’t cost more to read a book 500 times rather than once. It didn’t matter whether the book was a reference you used every day or something you read once and put on the shelf. And all this was done because it was practically impossible for the state, an author, or an author’s agents to control the use of a printed book once it had been made and sold. So restrictions on copying were the foundation of intellectual property law, because they were amenable to control.

And now we have computers and electronic storage. And suddenly the restrictions on copying that worked so well in the print era don’t work as easily. It is now so cheap to copy a work that someone may very well provide free copies of a work they do not own the rights too, because it costs them essentially nothing. People might be comfortable paying $19.95 for a hardcover copy of a book, but they have an intuitive sense that paying $19.95 for the same work in an electronic document isn’t “fair”. Copying and distributing works used to be fairly easy for the state to control, but it suddenly is now incredibly difficult to control, just as it was always incredibly difficult to control how many people read a book.

Just ask yourself, what exactly is the fundamental difference between me reading an electronic version of a document that I paid for, then calling my friend over to the monitor after I’m done and letting him read the same thing, perfectly legally–and me making a copy of that licenced electronic document and sending it over to his computer on the other side of the room and having him read it there? Why exactly is it different? It is uncontroversial for me to buy a physical book and lend it to my friends to read. Therefore, it is uncontroversial for me to buy an electronic book, and let my friends read that copy of the work. But practically, there is no difference between me creating a copy of the work and sending it to my friend compared to me letting my friend borrow it on a disk, assuming I promise not to access my copy until my friend deletes his copy. Same practical effect, right?

So what is the difference? I made a COPY! That’s the difference, borrowing is OK, copying is bad. But WHY, for heaven’s sake. Because if I can make copies and distribute them to my friends then the author of the work doesn’t get compensated. And I agree. But the copying isn’t why he isn’t getting compensated. The author doesn’t get compensated when I let my friends read my copy of a book, or borrow it from the library. So why is it different if the library just makes me a copy of the book and gives it to me? Suppose I have a file on my hard drive. If I make a copy of the file and put it on my hard drive, and now have two copies of the file, I’ve violated the copyright. If I make 100 copies of the file and put them on my hard drive, I’ve violated the copyright 100 times. Suppose I have a server and make a million copies of the file and put them on my storage array. I’ve violated the law a million times. But suppose I were caught and suppose the penalty for making a copy was $10 per copy. In the first instance I’d be fined $10. In the second, $1000. In the third, $10,000,000. But was my offense really a million times worse? Yes, if I kill a million people that is a million times worse than killing one person. If I steal a million cars it is a millin times worse than stealing one car. But is making a million copies…all sitting quietly on my hard drive, accessable only by me…really a million times worse than making one copy? I could write a script that copies a file until it fills up the hard drive, then erases the hard drive, then starts again. If I let it run for a few months I could concievably create many billions of copies of the file. Do I really ethically owe the creator of the file hundreds of billions of dollars, every copy an offense that should be compensated at $10? Because it seems to me the real ethical offense against the author of the file is not making the copies of the file, it would be distributing them in such a fashion that he cannot profit from creating the file.

The real answer is that we have restrictions on copying that were created under a technological regime where they made a rough sort of sense. Not perfectly, but roughly. An author could create works and get a rough approximation of fair compensation of the use of those works.

But that will not work anymore. If we stick to the sacredness of copying as the criteria for compensating authors, the authors will no longer be compensated in some proportion to the success of their work, simply because copying is too easy, too trivial, too hard to track, too hard to stop, too hard to control. If copy restrictions remain the way intellectual property is controlled, creators of intellectual property are going to get screwed massively, and that will mean fewer incentives to create intellectual property, and that will mean less will be produced.

I don’t want that to happen, I want authors to be rewarded in some rough way for their work. A new regime doesn’t have to be perfect, we can tolerate a certain percentage of people circumventing the intent of the new law. But copying a work isn’t using a work. A person should really, ethically, pay not for making a copy but for accessing a copy. It shouldn’t matter where that copy is, or how many servers it is stored on. It shouldn’t matter if the work is copied a million times onto a million desktops, or one copy is stored in one central server and accessed a million times, it seems to me the situations are functionally identical. There should be some agreed upon method of compensating the author for accessing that work. And I’m not sure exactly how this should work, since it is going to take some trial and error. But treating ISPs as publishers, and tracking the distribution of “copyrighted” files in some way, and compensating authors based on that data is one way. I’m not sure whether the users should be charged per-use access fees or monthly flat fees for unlimited access, but either method would be workable.

The biggest problem with this scheme is the vulnerabilty to spoofiing…set up two servers to email copies of your band’s latest release back and forth to each other for a month and suddenly you’re a millionaire. But I imagine identifying information can be tracked, and only real instances counted, and instances where identity was too hard to track could just be thrown out. Sure, that means that if a goatherder in Kazakhstan used an anonymizer to download music the author would lose that one download/access fee. But it seems a small price to pay, since the majority of messages are going to be traceable.

Accessright, not copyright should be the new standard for the new technology. If we keep with the old paradigm everyone loses, authors and fans both.

But this can go farther than that. How about if someone, while visiting your house, copies some of your vacation photos, and publishes them in a book or on the Internet? Or, how about someone sees your unfinished manuscript on your desk, copies that, and publishes it? All without your consent or knowledge?

Would you have any objections?

But a manuscript that you’re not through writing, or pictures in your house, are hardly abandoned copyrights, are they? There are many other SDMB debates on copyright in general. The issue here is more along the lines of: you published a best selling book . . . in 1948. It’s been out of print for 35 years. You died in the 1960s. I want to do a reissue of your books because I think there would be a market for them, but no one seems to know who’s got the rights. The copyrights belonged to your publishing company which was bought out by another in 1957, and then there have been various mergers and so forth. No one is interested in helping me find out where the ball ended up. What should I do?

I would say that copyright should require registration and occasional nominal fees. (Lessig, in the book I cited, has a similar idea.) Every ten years you’d have to pay $20 to maintain the copyright; if you did not, it would expire. Anyone who had a serious financial or personal interest in the material would pay the fee, and the vast majority of works would go back to the public domain so that everyone else could have a crack at them.

Taking this in not necessarily any order:

Well, for one, the reproduction (with certain exceptions) is expressly prohibited in the indicia at the beginning of the book or the EULA that may accompany an electronic work. If the indicia called for not letting anyone else read the book, you would legally be bound by that as well (excuse the pun. I’ve bought books with this stipulation as well).

The fundamental difference is that you made a copy and sent it to your friend: reproducing the work.

Same practical effect? No. What if you photocopied a book, lent him the copy, didn’t read your copy until he shredded the photocopy? You have still violated the restriction on copying the book in the first place.