# The EU needs to get France under control (closing of airspace) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708 "2010-10-19T21:54:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/81 "2010-10-20T18:37:17Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I don’t mean to Godwinize this thread, but isn’t this a pretty good summary of a key aspect of fascism? Well yes, but it was also done by such upstanding “gentlemen” as Churchill. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/82 "2010-10-20T18:44:27Z")
> [@villa](#): > > That I am not in the UK now is completely and utterly irrelevant. It’s about as relevant to the thread as whether I’m personally inconvenienced by the strike or not. Hasn’t stopped you harping on about it for the best part of half the thread. > [@](#): > > A person on the one hand claims that the unions aren’t as necessary as they were in the nineteenth century, then supports using the army on strikers. Un-fucking-believable. The army should be brought in. There’s this thing called “representative democracy”. We elect a government to make hard decisions on our behalf. Don’t like those decisions? Vote them out at the next election. Don’t shut down the damned country (and half your continent) because you aren’t getting your own way. That’s bullshit. Nobody in the West is living in a tyranny where the only recourse is civil disobedience. > [@acsenray](#): > > I don’t mean to Godwinize this thread, but isn’t this a pretty good summary of a key aspect of fascism? That the government should hold ultimate power, not unelected unions? You tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/83 "2010-10-20T19:02:48Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > That the government should hold ultimate power, not unelected unions? You tell me. In a democracy, the government’s power to act is limited by, among other things, the right of the people to strike. Your conclusion that this exercise of this right amounts to “subversives destabilizing the country” is pure hyperbole, of the kind employed by people who have no interest in protecting civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/84 "2010-10-20T19:11:26Z")
Really? How many people have to go on strike for this annoyance to become a “right”? Should 25% of the population, unhappy with the current situation, be able to make life intolerable for the rest, with the government given no recourse to act in the public and nation’s interest? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/85 "2010-10-20T19:19:14Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Really? How many people have to go on strike for this annoyance to become a “right”? Should 25% of the population, unhappy with the current situation, be able to make life intolerable for the rest, with the government given no recourse to act in the public and nation’s interest? “Intolerable”? “Nation’s interest”? More hyperbole. Almost all exercise of civil and human rights creates a likelihood of inconveniencing someone else. You’re going to have to do better than that to show that it has reached the point that militarization of civil society is called for. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/86 "2010-10-20T19:28:30Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > That the government should hold ultimate power, not unelected unions? You tell me. The \*people \*should hold ultimate power. It’s a [del]democracy[/del]republic, not a leased monarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/87 "2010-10-20T19:45:14Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Really? How many people have to go on strike for this annoyance to become a “right”? Should 25% of the population, unhappy with the current situation, be able to make life intolerable for the rest, with the government given no recourse to act in the public and nation’s interest? Try 70%. That’s the current proportion of French people who are behind the strikes ([cite](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11563423)). Your 25% figure is actually a bit higher than the _government_’s approval rating, which was sitting at a record 21% last I heard. That’s record for the entire span of the Fifth Republic, mind you, not just this administration. So, should fewer than 25% of the population, happy with the current situation, be able to push their self-serving reforms, which are intolerable for the rest, with the victims given no recourse to act in their own interest ? And if they try, roll in the tanks ? Well fuck that, pardon my French. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/88 "2010-10-20T20:55:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > So, should fewer than 25% of the population, happy with the current situation, be able to push their self-serving reforms, which are intolerable for the rest, with the victims given no recourse to act in their own interest? _Self-serving_ reforms? Well, I guess yeah, they are self-serving as they benefit France. I doubt there are many economists (certainly outside of France) that see these reforms as anything but an essential and inevitable change. As for power residing with the people, unfortunately you’re right. The job of government is not to represent the consensus view (which in the case of public spending will always be spend, spend, spend, as seen in California), but to run the country as experts. However, if the public want to dig their heels in about something, then government ultimately has to capitulate, as has been seen now many times in france. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/89 "2010-10-20T20:59:41Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > 1. Air traffic controllers in the EU, like police, should not have the right to strike. If y’all deny them the right to strike, they’ll strike in protest. The only solution is public executions, but that might be seen as an overreaction.. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/90 "2010-10-20T21:22:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Try 70%. That’s the current proportion of French people who are behind the strikes ([cite](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11563423)). Your 25% figure is actually a bit higher than the _government_’s approval rating, which was sitting at a record 21% last I heard. That’s record for the entire span of the Fifth Republic, mind you, not just this administration. > > So, should fewer than 25% of the population, happy with the current situation, be able to push their self-serving reforms, which are intolerable for the rest, with the victims given no recourse to act in their own interest ? And if they try, roll in the tanks ? > Well fuck that, pardon my French. Why can’t you wait 18 months to vote the bums out of office? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/91 "2010-10-20T21:52:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If y’all deny them the right to strike, they’ll strike in protest. The only solution is public executions, but that might be seen as an overreaction.. Well, there’s always Ronald Reagan’s solution. Mind, I’m no fan of Reagan in general. But in this case he was right. When the U.S. controllers went on strike, in violation of their work rules, Reagan simply fired all of them, and had the FAA start hiring new ones who would agree not to go on strike. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/92 "2010-10-20T22:15:40Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Well, there’s always Ronald Reagan’s solution. Mind, I’m no fan of Reagan in general. But in this case he was right. When the U.S. controllers went on strike, in violation of their work rules, Reagan simply fired all of them, and had the FAA start hiring new ones who would agree not to go on strike. I was thinking of Reagan when I posted earlier. It wouldn’t work, anyway. The “they” who will strike in protest of being denied the right to strike are much of the rest of France. Really, the only solution is to tell Frank Castle that the French are intimately involved in human trafficking and drop him in the middle of Paris. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/93 "2010-10-20T22:40:24Z")
they are on strike, just fly over them and no one will notice 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/94 "2010-10-20T22:56:44Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Well, there’s always Ronald Reagan’s solution. Mind, I’m no fan of Reagan in general. But in this case he was right. When the U.S. controllers went on strike, in violation of their work rules, Reagan simply fired all of them, and had the FAA start hiring new ones who would agree not to go on strike. Well Reagan actually had the law on his side band I vaguely recall reading that the whole deal negatively affected airline safety foe years after. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/95 "2010-10-20T23:50:09Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > No, I gathered you aren’t a fan. After all, it’s pretty easy to preach patience when you are far removed from the situation. How many ATC strikes have there been in the US this year? I’m guessing … precisely zero. Last time the ATC guys went on strike in the US they were all fired and then banned from ever working for the Federal government in an capacity or as an air traffic controller in any capacity. Of course, the delay while _new_ ATC personnel were trained (a multi-year process) was pretty damn disruptive, too, and arguably continued longer than a strike would have. But Reagan taught those damned dirty controllers a lesson, he did! It’s illegal for ATC to strike in the US. It always has been. That’s only been challenged once, and none of those guys ever worked in aviation ever again. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/96 "2010-10-21T00:04:43Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Police and various other services cannot strike in the UK. I’m interested, in general, in the matter of fighting ignorance, as to what service providers find it illegal to strike in the UK. And, specifically, do “various other services” include ATCs? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/97 "2010-10-21T00:10:19Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > The army should be brought in. There’s this thing called “representative democracy”. We elect a government to make hard decisions on our behalf. Don’t like those decisions? Vote them out at the next election. Don’t shut down the damned country (and half your continent) because you aren’t getting your own way. That’s bullshit. Nobody in the West is living in a tyranny where the only recourse is civil disobedience. > > . Sorry, you dont elect anything. You’re a British subject, if you want to elect the French government, you’re free to move to France and ask for French citizenship. Until then, you’re free to shut up. France’s airspace belongs to France, and that’s the end of that. The right to strike is a constitutional principle, meaning no treaties, including the EU treaties, can supersede that. The only thing would be France deciding to change its Constitution to amend that. Like pouring out fire on gasoline. Incidentally: the whole “French are too irresponsible to govern themselves”, wow, do you have to wear a Pith helmet when writing that? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/98 "2010-10-21T01:02:16Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Sorry, you dont elect anything. You’re a British subject, if you want to elect the French government, you’re free to move to France and ask for French citizenship. Until then, you’re free to shut up. > France’s airspace belongs to France, and that’s the end of that. What, we’re not allowed to comment on actions in other sovereign states now? This message board is going to get awkward from now on… They may have the right to strike, but we have the right to be pissed off by it, and discuss it on a message board. We also have the right to debate general principles of politics and democracy. > [@](#): > > The right to strike is a constitutional principle, meaning no treaties, including the EU treaties, can supersede that. Well, that’s a glaring flaw in the constitution then. As a practical matter there is a line at which government _must_ interfere, and in which other states may be compelled to act; the point at which serious harm is being caused. If a government stood by and let emergency services, power station engineers etc strike routinely, a prosperous nation could be reduced to poverty rapidly, and where would that leave people’s retirement plans? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/99 "2010-10-21T01:15:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > If a government stood by and let emergency services, power station engineers etc strike routinely, a prosperous nation could be reduced to poverty rapidly, and where would that leave people’s retirement plans? Sorry but the OP made it very clear that it wasnt over a concern for France’s well being that he was pissed off but because his flight had been delayed (or not. It wasnt very clear if he was complaining about something that actually happened to him, or could have happened to him. Or may. It’s hard to tell with rants). So it was just the fact that France had sovereign power over its own air space. Tough noogies. ---
**Author:** ![FuzzyOgre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@FuzzyOgre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuzzyOgre)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/100 "2010-10-21T06:25:12Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I was thinking of Reagan when I posted earlier. > > It wouldn’t work, anyway. The “they” who will strike in protest of being denied the right to strike are much of the rest of France. Really, the only solution is to tell Frank Castle that the French are intimately involved in human trafficking and drop him in the middle of Paris. I was going to suggest this strike was a plot on the behalf of the BOFH and PFY to make some money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708.md?page=6)