# The EU needs to get France under control (closing of airspace) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708 "2010-10-19T21:54:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/121 "2010-10-21T18:01:53Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Actually, the people should hold the ultimate power, but that’s a difference we have. > > I saw a poster once that applies to you, which basically contained the slogan “Here is your lifetime’s supply of democracy. XXX XXX XXX XXX” > > Underneath it included the tag line “Please don’t steal the pencil on your way out.” > > Democracy isn’t defined by voting once every 5 years. Strikes and unions and the workplace in general are as important a part of true democracy, if not more so, than general elections. Yeah yeah, we get it. If only the UK shut down every other month due to paralysing strikes it would be the paradise on earth known as France. Didn’t we try that back in the 1970s? Didn’t seem to go down too well from what I can gather. > [@villa](#): > > And if you believe in the sending troops in onto striking workers, then you are far from a democrat. Strikers paralysing the country? Absolutely. > [@Sri Theo](#): > > ``` > Man, every time I read a thread on this board that involves the EU I want to ram my head into a wall. > > ``` > > But fundamentally Captain Ridley is trying to argue that democracy is just voting, which is anathema to most of mainland Europe. A functioning democracy requires not just elections and the rule of law, but the active involvement of a nations citizenry, democracy requires continuous participation and deliberation between and citizens and governors. > > Ticking a box is not sufficient to ensure that your country is run by the principles which you desire. > > Take for example the corruption allegations that have hit Sarkozy and his party _after_ they were elected, how can you allow an openly corrupt politician and party to govern when there is no recall mechanism? On the contrary, what you are describing is not democracy; it’s mob rule. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/122 "2010-10-21T18:06:26Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > On the contrary, what you are describing is not democracy; it’s mob rule. That’s the basic premise of a democracy, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/123 "2010-10-21T18:18:17Z")
A French democracy, maybe. The Anglo-Saxon democratic ideal is that of citizens acting together in a prudent, rational and educated fashion. It rarely happens, but at least that’s what we strive for. Mob rule is anathema to prudent, rational and educated decision-making. Mobs are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/124 "2010-10-21T18:19:03Z")
Athenian democracy, yes. Representative democracy, hell no. Representative democracy works in spite of every retard in the country having a vote, not because of it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/125 "2010-10-21T18:25:08Z")
Especially if one can just shoot the hoi polloi if they get uppity. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/126 "2010-10-21T18:42:42Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think you misunderstand my objection. > > On this board, anyone can post about any event in the world. The idea that “it’s not your country, butt out” is anathema to this board. > > I have a job interview in Germany in a few days time. If these strikes mean I can’t attend, then I’m going to post a rant on this site the likes of which has never been seen 😃 Sorry Mijin, but I think you misunderstood mine too. Captain Ridley was going on a rant saying “The army should be brought in. There’s this thing called “representative democracy”. We elect a government to make hard decisions on our behalf. Don’t like those decisions? Vote them out at the next election. Don’t shut down the damned country (and half your continent) because you aren’t getting your own way”. Obviousy you’re entitled to have an opinion, and to express it. If you’re not a French citizen, you’re just not entitled to anything over what the French government decides. That’s between the government and the people it governs. Ridley is not part of that equation. If he so desperately wants to correct that, he can apply for French citizenship. I dont remember British citizenship allowing bench ruling on French issues. I might have been a little more civil in answering, I’ll grant you that. But going on rants with “The EU needs to interfere as the French have proved once again they’re not responsible enough to govern themselves” kind of curbs my enthusiasm for civility. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/127 "2010-10-21T18:49:10Z")
No, you still misunderstand. Back to the barricade for you. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/128 "2010-10-21T18:53:00Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > In addition, muddying the waters with talk of “sovereignty” is more self-serving disingenuous bullshit. The EU is a club. It has rules. Any member state can take their sovereignty at any time and tell the EU to go shove it. Me joining a golf club and agreeing to wear suitable atire on the course doesn’t affect the fact that I’m an ordinary citizen with rights otherwise. If I don’t like what I’m forced to wear, then I can leave and find another club. The EU setting up legal frameworks that clarify what exactly can affect ATC services isn’t a threat to sovereignty in the slightest. Hence the examples of British particularism, if in a club I guess everyone is subject to the same rules. Yet, you’re writing from a country that refuses to adopt the currency used by everyone else in the club. Do I start to roll over and cry over that. Hmm, no. The EU unilaterally deciding who has the right to strike and who hasnt in France would be deliberately going against France’s Constitution. I’m not sure an attack on the core of the sovereignty of one of its founding members would be a wise move by the EU. Especially when the EU Commission has no democratic backing while the strikers have. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/129 "2010-10-21T18:56:50Z")
Actually, no, I’m not writing from a country with a currency outside the “club” at all. And there’s no rule stating that member nations need to sign up to your ramshackle currency propped up by Germany (and initially us), thank Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/130 "2010-10-21T19:07:50Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Actually, no, I’m not writing from a country with a currency outside the “club” at all. And there’s no rule stating that member nations need to sign up to your ramshackle currency propped up by Germany (and initially us), thank Christ. Well there’s no rule that says France hasnt got total control over its air space neither. So you’re just asking for a specific rule against France sovereignty because it hurts your interests a bit, and at the same time you back up behind “There’s no rule forcing us to” when asked about Britain adopting the Euro. Thanks for making your arguments painfully clear. I couldnt have done it on my own, it truly was a team effort. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/131 "2010-10-21T19:13:44Z")
Wow, you can’t leave the BS about “sovereignty” alone, can you? One proposal: perfectly justified given the multitudinous problems French ATC have getting to work on time and staying there once they arrive. The other: some lame “gotcha” attempt. Actually make a case that Britain joining the Euro is a good idea (hint: it isn’t. The last thing we need is another country on the continent tied to that piece of shit. Let’s all sink with Greece and Italy while we’re at it.) and I may be persuaded that an EU ruling in this sphere is warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/132 "2010-10-21T19:48:03Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Wow, you can’t leave the BS about “sovereignty” alone, can you? > > One proposal: perfectly justified given the multitudinous problems French ATC have getting to work on time and staying there once they arrive. > > The other: some lame “gotcha” attempt. Actually make a case that Britain joining the Euro is a good idea (hint: it isn’t. The last thing we need is another country on the continent tied to that piece of shit. Let’s all sink with Greece and Italy while we’re at it.) and I may be persuaded that an EU ruling in this sphere is warranted. Sorry, but you don’t get to pick and choose. Either you’re of the opinion that the EU can supercede the sovereignty of its members when it deems it important/convenient (and demonstrably, the majority of the EU has deemed switching to the Euro was important and convenient, to use the current example), or you deem that individual states can tell the EU to fock roight orff and let each member decide which rules of the club they’re going to obey, and which they’re going not to. But your position of “the UK can do whatever the fuck it wants, but the EU needs to force France to comply with what the UK wants” is not realistic. And no, you can’t make rules for one member that do not apply to the others. That’s not how this whole “community” thing works. Else we’d have unilaterally made British use of cookware illegal a long time ago 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/133 "2010-10-21T21:14:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Sorry, but you don’t get to pick and choose. Either you’re of the opinion that the EU can supercede the sovereignty of its members when it deems it important/convenient (and demonstrably, the majority of the EU has deemed switching to the Euro was important and convenient, to use the current example), or you deem that individual states can tell the EU to fock roight orff and let each member decide which rules of the club they’re going to obey, and which they’re going not to. First of all, the relationship between those events and the harm they cause other member states is different. If the UK didn’t exist, how would that affect the single currency? It wouldn’t, other than indirectly by making the world economy smaller. Britain not being in the euro causes no harm beyond the neutral case. OTOH if there were no France, all nations could fly across that airspace freely. So the ATC strikes cause harm beyond the neutral case. But in any case, I think it’s a false dilemma that either the EU has ultimate power or member states do whatever the hell they like. Indeed the whole concept of the EU is a compromise between those two extremes. If Britain not joining the euro irks other members sufficiently, then there are ways that they can put pressure on us to change. Similarly, we could put pressure on France to find contingency plans for these strikes, or yield some control to the EU. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/134 "2010-10-21T21:18:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Because we want them out NOW, duh ! 😃 > > Seriously though, it’s not like this thing was planned. The government angered a few active unions by being raging dicks, who went on strike. Sarkozy essentially told them “go ahead and strike. Nobody cares” with his usual helping of scorn. In public. In France. > Yeah, he’s kind of socially and politically tone deaf, that one. > So, others joined in the protest and, well, now we’ve realized just how much all of us were fed up with the fuckers. And the way they’re handling the crisis isn’t exactly tactful, or efficient, or slick. > > Yes, in a word, they’re being raging dicks some more. And like fuck we’re going to let them get away with it. Can’t let the bastards win. So yeah, in the immortal words of renowned political analyst Bryan Adams, we can’t stop this thing we started. You gotta know it’s right. > > ETA : oh, and also, 18 months from now, the proposed bill will have become a law. It’s much harder to get a law off the books than it is to prevent it from reaching the books in the first place. FYI, the vote on the bill is scheduled for the 28th, so unrest will probably last at least until then (although tomorrow evening, school holidays begin. I’m kinda curious how much of the enthusiasm will drop when people realize the kids aren’t getting to the beach anytime soon…Or how many high schoolers and college kids will still come to the protests when it doesn’t entail dodging algebra :)) You still haven’t explained why you can’t wait 18 months for an election. You’ve made an argument on the level of a 3 year old saying “But I want candy now!”. It isn’t how adults operate. You yourself recognize that this strike was started by “a bunch of dicks”. Yet for some reason, instead of heaping scorn on them, you defend them against those that are. Please explain, why shouldn’t “a bunch of dicks” be scorned, and why should anyone be angry at Sarkozy for doing so? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/135 "2010-10-21T21:24:38Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You still haven’t explained why you can’t wait 18 months for an election. You’ve made an argument on the level of a 3 year old saying “But I want candy now!”. It isn’t how adults operate. You yourself recognize that this strike was started by “a bunch of dicks”. Yet for some reason, instead of heaping scorn on them, you defend them against those that are. Please explain, why shouldn’t “a bunch of dicks” be scorned, and why should anyone be angry at Sarkozy for doing so? Because not everything is resolved through an election. Because the political structure is designed to maintain power and privilege for those who already have it. And because, in the immortal words of Ken Livingstone, “if voting changed anything, they’d abolish it.” ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/136 "2010-10-21T21:38:50Z")
> [@treis](#): > > You still haven’t explained why you can’t wait 18 months for an election. You’ve made an argument on the level of a 3 year old saying “But I want candy now!”. It isn’t how adults operate. You yourself recognize that this strike was started by “a bunch of dicks”. Yet for some reason, instead of heaping scorn on them, you defend them against those that are. Please explain, why shouldn’t “a bunch of dicks” be scorned, and why should anyone be angry at Sarkozy for doing so? The French government is fast tracking the law now, not in 18 months. They already didnt negotiate anything when writing the law, then they hurry it through the legislative process. Their strategy is obviously to get the law passed quickly as it is more difficult, in their minds, to rescind the law once it is promulgated (they’re deluding themselves there, but it wouldnt be the first time they do, so). If there is a time for demos and strikes, it’s now, not in 18 months. The fact that it may cause some difficulties for others in their travel arrangements is as relevant to the issue as a fly on a rhino’s back, and just testament to the navel-gazing capacities of some people. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/137 "2010-10-21T21:45:08Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Incidentally: the whole “French are too irresponsible to govern themselves”, wow, do you have to wear a Pith helmet when writing that? Nah, [this helmet](http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/enemy-ww1/german-helmet.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/138 "2010-10-21T21:54:47Z")
[QUOTE=Capitane Zombie] The fact that it may cause some difficulties for others in their travel arrangements is as relevant to the issue as a fly on a rhino’s back, and just testament to the navel-gazing capacities of some people. [/quote] Hey, look, another poster who doesn’t understand that people don’t fly for the hell of it, but, you know, may have actual important reasons for getting on a plane. Visiting dieing relatives. Making it to a wedding or Christening. Important business deals. etc. etc. All of these are absolutely of no consequence compared to the idle French keeping their gravy train going for another year, as is the hundreds of millions in Euros in lost business that’s incurred when the French decide their government does something they don’t like for the 500 billionth time this year. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/139 "2010-10-21T22:02:07Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Nah, [this helmet](http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/enemy-ww1/german-helmet.jpg). I prefer [this](http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/badges-asstd3/austrian2.jpg) one. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708/140 "2010-10-21T22:19:46Z")
> [@Sri\_Theo](#): > > Know whether the strikers are right or wrong is essentially meaningless to whether they have the right to strike. See, that’s fine. But as an American, a lot of what I’m hearing about the strikes in Greece and France surpass what I consider just “striking.” I can’t accept blocking roads and access to facilities as merely being “democracy in action”. It’s using physical force to get what you want, which seems pretty undemocratic to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-eu-needs-to-get-france-under-control-closing-of-airspace/557708.md?page=8)